Dagger - Revision history

Hordes: /* Comparison to Short Blades */

2025-10-18T18:42:30Z

‎Comparison to Short Blades

Hordes: /* Comparison to Short Blades */

2024-05-04T08:13:32Z

‎Comparison to Short Blades

Hordes: /* Comparison to Short Blades */

2024-03-17T04:22:08Z

‎Comparison to Short Blades

Hordes: /* Strategy */ reduce a use of "namely"

2024-03-09T16:51:06Z

‎Strategy: reduce a use of "namely"

Hordes: /* Comparison to Short Blades */

2024-03-09T16:46:51Z

‎Comparison to Short Blades

Hordes at 16:42, 9 March 2024

2024-03-09T16:42:59Z

Hordes: strategy stuff

2024-03-09T16:11:24Z

strategy stuff

Hordes: /* Strategy */

2023-06-28T20:29:17Z

‎Strategy

Ge0ff: /* Strategy */

2023-06-18T12:41:34Z

‎Strategy

Hordes: /* Strategy */

2023-06-15T18:40:38Z

‎Strategy

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 Despite their special stabbing bonus, daggers may be worse than other short blades for stabbing damage. Assuming you've reached mindelay:
-*[[Quick blade]]s: Quick blades are better at every stab except [[sleep]] stabs. Quick blades have the same base damage, but make twice as many stabs. The dagger bonus is ''always'' less than twice the damage of other short blades, so quick blades are just better.  Sleeping enemies are the sole exception: since sleeping enemies can only be stabbed once, the stronger first hit off a dagger is better.
+*[[Quick blade]]s: Quick blades are better at every stab except [[sleep]] stabs. This is because quick blades have the same base damage, but make twice as many stabs. The dagger bonus is ''always'' less than twice the damage of other short blades, so quick blades are just better.  Sleeping enemies are the sole exception: since sleeping enemies can only be stabbed once, the stronger first hit off a dagger is better.
 *[[Rapier]]s: At ''extremely'' high levels of skill and dexterity, rapiers may deal more stab damage than daggers do.<!--

@@ Line 27: / Line 27: @@
 Despite their special stabbing bonus, daggers may be worse than other short blades for stabbing damage. Assuming you've reached mindelay:
-*[[Quick blade]]s: Quick blades are better at every stab except [[sleep]] stabs. Quick blades have the same base damage, but make twice as many stabs. The dagger bonus is ''always'' less than twice the damage, so quick blades are just better.  Sleeping enemies are the sole exception: since sleeping enemies can only be stabbed once, the stronger first hit off a dagger is better.
+*[[Quick blade]]s: Quick blades are better at every stab except [[sleep]] stabs. Quick blades have the same base damage, but make twice as many stabs. The dagger bonus is ''always'' less than twice the damage of other short blades, so quick blades are just better.  Sleeping enemies are the sole exception: since sleeping enemies can only be stabbed once, the stronger first hit off a dagger is better.
 *[[Rapier]]s: At ''extremely'' high levels of skill and dexterity, rapiers may deal more stab damage than daggers do.<!--

@@ Line 27: / Line 27: @@
 Despite their special stabbing bonus, daggers may be worse than other short blades for stabbing damage. Assuming you've reached mindelay:
-*[[Quick blade]]s: Quick blades are better at every stab except [[sleep]] stabs, assuming you've reached its mindelay. Quick blades have the same base damage, but make twice as many stabs. The dagger bonus is ''always'' less than twice the damage, so quick blades are just better.  Sleeping enemies are the sole exception: since sleeping enemies can only be stabbed once, the stronger first hit off a dagger is better.
+*[[Quick blade]]s: Quick blades are better at every stab except [[sleep]] stabs. Quick blades have the same base damage, but make twice as many stabs. The dagger bonus is ''always'' less than twice the damage, so quick blades are just better.  Sleeping enemies are the sole exception: since sleeping enemies can only be stabbed once, the stronger first hit off a dagger is better.
 *[[Rapier]]s: At ''extremely'' high levels of skill and dexterity, rapiers may deal more stab damage than daggers do.<!--

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 ==Strategy==
-Daggers are weak if you aren't stabbing. If you have nothing else, a dagger is at least better than a [[club]] or [[Unarmed Combat]]. However, a [[short sword]] will be better at everything but stab damage. On the other hand, "stabber" characters (namely [[Enchanter]]s and other users of [[Hexes]]) greatly benefit from the dagger boost. A skilled stabber with a good dagger can one-shot sleeping dragons and giants with ease.
+Daggers are weak if you aren't stabbing. If you have nothing else, a dagger is at least better than a [[club]] or [[Unarmed Combat]]. However, a [[short sword]] will be better at everything but stab damage. On the other hand, "stabber" characters (such as [[Enchanter]]s and other users of [[Hexes]]) greatly benefit from the dagger boost. A skilled stabber with a good dagger can one-shot sleeping dragons and giants with ease.
-For other characters, a dagger (or short sword) with a "flat" damage brand, namely [[venom]] or [[electrocution]], is a strong early game weapon. A dagger of venom can take you to [[Lair]] with 0 skill investment. This isn't because daggers are good, but because the venom brand is so powerful in the early Dungeon.
+For other characters, a dagger/short sword with a "flat" damage brand, namely [[venom]] or [[electrocution]], is a strong early game weapon. A dagger of venom can take you to [[Lair]] with 0 skill investment. This isn't because daggers are good, but because the venom brand is so powerful in the early Dungeon.
 ===Comparison to Short Blades===

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 *[[Rapier]]s: At ''extremely'' high levels of skill and dexterity, rapiers may deal more stab damage than daggers do.<!--
-**Daggers deal <code>4 * skill_dmg% + 10 * log2(1 + [dex/10 + 1 + <wpn_skill + stealth> / 2] / 5)</code> damage before the stab multiplier.
+**Daggers deal <code>4 * skill_dmg% * stat_dmg% + 10 * log2(1 + [dex/10 + 1 + <wpn_skill + stealth> / 2] / 5)</code> damage before the stab multiplier.
-**Rapiers deal <code>7 * skill_dmg% + 10 * log2(1 + [dex/10 + 1 + <wpn_skill + stealth> / 2] / 10)</code> damage before the stab multiplier.
+**Rapiers deal <code>7 * skill_dmg% * stat_dmg% + 10 * log2(1 + [dex/10 + 1 + <wpn_skill + stealth> / 2] / 10)</code> damage before the stab multiplier.
-For "skill_dmg%" equals the average damage multiplier from Fighting and Short Blades skill. Example:
+For "skill_dmg%" equals the average damage multiplier from Fighting and Short Blades skill, and "stat_dmg" equals the multiplier from dexterity. Example:
-At 20 dexterity, 14 Fighting, 14 Short Blades, and 14 Stealth, a rapier stab results in 29.46 pre-multiplier damage, and a dagger stab results in 31.89 pre-multiplier dmg.--> For reference: at 25 dexterity, 27 Fighting, 27 Short Blades, and 27 Stealth, a rapier stab is just slightly better than a dagger stab. At more realistic levels of skill, dagger stabs just deal more damage.
+At 20 dexterity, 14 Fighting, 14 Short Blades, and 14 Stealth, a rapier stab results in 29.46 pre-multiplier damage, and a dagger stab results in 31.89 pre-multiplier dmg.--> For reference: at 25 dexterity, 27 Fighting, 27 Short Blades, and 27 Stealth, a rapier stab is just slightly better than a dagger stab. At more realistic levels of skill, dagger stabs are significantly better. Of course, sticking with a rapier means you don't have to waste time swapping weapons.

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-{{version030}}{{weapon
+{{version031}}{{weapon
   |name        = Dagger
   |cost        = ?
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 For other characters, a dagger (or short sword) with a "flat" damage brand, namely [[venom]] or [[electrocution]], is a strong early game weapon. A dagger of venom can take you to [[Lair]] with 0 skill investment. This isn't because daggers are good, but because the venom brand is so powerful in the early Dungeon.
-Note that [[quick blade]]s are better for every stab except [[sleep]] stabs, assuming you've reached mindelay with both weapons. While daggers may get bonus damage, quick blades make twice as many stabs. Since the dagger bonus is ''always'' less than twice the damage, quick blades are just better. Sleeping enemies are the sole exception: since sleeping enemies wake up after the first stab, the stronger first hit off a dagger is better.
+===Comparison to Short Blades===

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 {{crawlquote|This weapon falls into the '[[Short Blades]]' category. It is a one handed weapon.}}
-The '''dagger''' is the smallest combat short blade. While daggers are one of the weakest weapons, they receive the largest [[stabbing]] bonus. See the [[Stabbing]] page for more details.
+The '''dagger''' is the smallest short blade. While daggers are one of the weakest weapons, they receive a large [[stabbing]] bonus, higher than all other weapons. See the [[Stabbing]] page for more details.
 ==Strategy==
-At 0 skill, a dagger is at least better than a [[club]] or [[Unarmed Combat]]. However, a [[short sword]] will be better at everything but stabbing.
+Daggers are weak if you aren't stabbing. If you have nothing else, a dagger is at least better than a [[club]] or [[Unarmed Combat]]. However, a [[short sword]] will be better at everything but stab damage. On the other hand, "stabber" characters (namely [[Enchanter]]s and other users of [[Hexes]]) greatly benefit from the dagger boost. A skilled stabber with a good dagger can one-shot sleeping dragons and giants with ease.
-A dagger (or short sword) with a "flat" damage brand, namely [[venom]] or [[electrocution]], is a strong earlygame weapon. A dagger of venom can take you to [[Lair]] with 0 skill investment.
+For other characters, a dagger (or short sword) with a "flat" damage brand, namely [[venom]] or [[electrocution]], is a strong early game weapon. A dagger of venom can take you to [[Lair]] with 0 skill investment. This isn't because daggers are good, but because the venom brand is so powerful in the early Dungeon.
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 At 0 skill, a dagger is at least better than a [[club]] or [[Unarmed Combat]]. A [[short sword]] will be better at everything but stabbing.
-A dagger (or short sword) with a "flat" damage brand, namely [[venom]] or [[electrocution]], is a strong earlygame weapon. A venom dagger can take you to [[Lair]] with 0 skill investment.
+A dagger (or short sword) with a "flat" damage brand, namely [[venom]] or [[electrocution]], is a strong earlygame weapon. A dagger of venom can take you to [[Lair]] with 0 skill investment.
 Characters that lend themselves to a "stealth-and-stab" style of (such as [[brigand]]s and [[enchanter]]s) may go through the entire game with a dagger, or at least use it as a secondary weapon. A skilled stabber with a good dagger can one-shot sleeping dragons and giants with ease.