Djinni - Revision history

Hordes: de-CBA

2025-10-13T08:59:18Z

de-CBA

Hordes: /* Starting Skills and Equipment */

2025-07-14T00:36:35Z

‎Starting Skills and Equipment

Ge0ff: /* History */ CBA new background recommendations from 0192c196d

2024-12-19T11:04:03Z

‎History: CBA new background recommendations from 0192c196d

Patrick2011b: it seems like the spells are rolled at the start of the game, which means sacs don't affect them

2024-06-19T19:42:53Z

it seems like the spells are rolled at the start of the game, which means sacs don't affect them

Hordes at 02:49, 30 March 2024

2024-03-30T02:49:29Z

Hordes: /* History */

2024-03-13T03:14:42Z

‎History

Hordes: remove extra space

2024-02-21T19:45:44Z

remove extra space

Hordes: fix dj math notes

2024-02-21T13:14:55Z

fix dj math notes

NormalPerson7: /* Difficulty of Play */

2024-02-21T11:34:08Z

‎Difficulty of Play

NormalPerson7: /* Difficulty of Play */ There are now only 11 spell skills. This makes Djinn even better!

2024-02-21T11:32:37Z

‎Difficulty of Play: There are now only 11 spell skills. This makes Djinn even better!

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-{{version031}}
+{{version033}}
 {{flavour|Djinn are beings of smokeless fire. They enter the world spontaneously and without explanation, born with a tireless hunger for knowledge and adventure. Djinn have a unique relationship with magic: rather than learning spells from books, their spells come from within, welling up from their fiery core as they gain experience. They draw from that same fiery core to cast spells - for Djinn, magical power and health are one and the same.
@@ Line 24: / Line 24: @@
 ==Preferred Backgrounds==
-*'''Warriors:''' [[Gladiator]]
+*'''Warrior-mages''': [[Warper]]
-*'''Adventurers:''' [[Shapeshifter]]
+*'''Mages:''' [[Hedge Wizard]], [[Conjurer]], [[Fire Elementalist]], [[Ice Elementalist]], [[Air Elementalist]]
 ==Level Bonuses==
@@ Line 98: / Line 97: @@
 ==History==
 *Prior to [[0.31]], Djinn had a -3 Spellcasting aptitude, and could not learn any other spell school. However, a level of Spellcasting counted as a level in every spell school (in addition to the bonus from Spellcasting itself).
 **Djinn skill training was slightly slower (roughly -0.16 aptitude), and their starting skills were particularly worse (due to having a "-3" aptitude).

@@ Line 64: / Line 64: @@
 ==Starting Skills and Equipment==
-Djinn receive the skills, equipment, and spells listed for their background, save for the following restriction:
+Djinn receive the skills, equipment, and spells listed for their background, save for the following adjustments:
-*For magic skills, Djinn get a special modifier. Djinn takes the backgrounds highest ''base'' skill, as if they had Human aptitudes, then apply it to all spell schools equally. For example, an [[Ice Elementalist]]'s highest skill is 4 Ice Magic, so a Djinn Ice Elementalist gets 4 Spellcasting, 4 Fire Magic, 4 Ice Magic, etc.
+*For magic skills, Djinn get a special modifier. Djinn takes the background's highest ''base'' magic skill, as if they had Human aptitudes, then apply it to all spell schools equally. For example, an [[Ice Elementalist]]'s highest skill is 4 Ice Magic, so a Djinn Ice Elementalist gets 4 Spellcasting, 4 Fire Magic, 4 Ice Magic, etc.
 *Djinn do not get [[potions of magic]].

@@ Line 98: / Line 98: @@
 ==History==
 *Prior to [[0.31]], Djinn had a -3 Spellcasting aptitude, and could not learn any other spell school. However, a level of Spellcasting counted as a level in every spell school (in addition to the bonus from Spellcasting itself).
 **Djinn skill training was slightly slower (roughly -0.16 aptitude), and their starting skills were particularly worse (due to having a "-3" aptitude).

@@ Line 25: / Line 25: @@
 ==Preferred Backgrounds==
 *'''Warriors:''' [[Gladiator]]
-*'''Warrior-mages:''' [[Transmuter]]
+*'''Adventurers:''' [[Shapeshifter]]
 *'''Mages:''' [[Hedge Wizard]], [[Fire Elementalist]], [[Ice Elementalist]]
@@ Line 54: / Line 54: @@
 |}
-Djinn can acquire any player spell, but there are several restrictions:<ref>{{source ref|0.30.1|ng-setup.cc|406}}</ref>
+Djinn can acquire any player spell, but there are several restrictions:<ref>{{source ref|0.31.0|ng-setup.cc|391}}</ref>
 *Spells must be new, which excludes the spells your [[Background]] starts with and spells you have already received.
-*Spells must be castable, which excludes [[Sublimation of Blood]] and spells from [[Ru|sacrificed]] magic schools.
+*Spells must be castable, which excludes [[Sublimation of Blood]].
 **Djinn can still receive spells forbidden by their [[god]], however (such as [[Necromancy]] spells when following a [[good god]], or any spell at all when following [[Trog]]).
 **Djinn can only receive [[Spellforged Servitor]] or [[Iskenderun's Battlesphere]] if they already have a spell that can be used by the servitor or trigger the battlesphere, respectively.

@@ Line 76: / Line 76: @@
 *If you were playing a [[Kobold]] (with flat 0 magic aptitudes) and ''only'' cared about [[spell power]], you would train to {5 Spellcasting, 15 Conjurations}. This would cost 7275 skill points.
 *A Djinn would reach the same amount of power at {13 Spellcasting, 13 Conjurations}. Each of the 11 skills costs 713 skill points, or 7843 skill points in total. This is only +7.8% more XP than the Kobold, or a '''-0.43''' aptitude. This happens because going from 12 -> 13 in a skill is cheaper than going from 14 -> 15 in a skill.
-*In practice, spell power isn't everything. The Kobold may want to train more Spellcasting, for either MP or spell level purposes. Said Kobold at {10 Spellcasting, 13.5 Conjurations} would reach the same power, but at a cost of 7913 skill points. Because Djinn don't need to spend XP for MP or spell levels, they can invest more into spell power.
+*In practice, spell power isn't everything. The Kobold may want to train more Spellcasting, for either MP or spell level purposes. Said Kobold at {10 Spellcasting, 13.5 Conjurations} would reach the same power, but at a cost of 7913 skill points (more than the Djinn!). In other words, because Djinn don't need to spend XP for MP or spell levels, they can invest more into spell power.
+:
 For dual-school spells, Djinn only become better. Using the same analysis for [[Fireball]], a Kobold would be efficient at {8 Spellcasting, 15 Fire, 15 Conj}, costing 15300 skill points. A Djinni equals that at {13.6 Spellcasting, 13.6 Fire, 13.6 Conj}, or 8657 skill points, which is 56.6% the XP. That's an effective aptitude of '''+3.29''' - substantially better than [[Deep Elves]]!

@@ Line 98: / Line 98: @@
 ==History==
 *Prior to [[0.31]], Djinn had a -3 Spellcasting aptitude, and could not learn any other spell school. However, a level of Spellcasting counted as a level in every spell school (in addition to the bonus from Spellcasting itself).
-**Djinn skill training was slightly slower (~ -0.16 aptitude), and their starting skills were particularly worse (due to having a "-3" aptitude).
+**Djinn skill training was slightly slower (roughly -0.16 aptitude), and their starting skills were particularly worse (due to having a "-3" aptitude).
-**Djinn could not benefit from the [[magical staff]] melee bonus, the [[pain brand]], or [[manual]]s of unlearnable spell schools. However, [[Ashenzari]] curses were particularly strong: Djinn were more likely to get useful curses, and "Introspection" curses benefited Fighting ''and'' every spell school.
+**Djinn could not benefit from the [[magical staff]] melee bonus, the [[pain brand]], or [[manual]]s of unlearnable spell schools. However, [[Ashenzari]] curses were particularly strong: Djinn were more likely to get useful curses, and "Introspection" curses benefited Fighting ''and'' the equivalent of every spell school.
 *The modern incarnation of Djinn, inspired by the Djinn of old and the [[Oni]] variant found in some forks of ''Dungeon Crawl'', was added in [[0.27]].
 *Djinn were considered for inclusion in both [[0.13]] and [[0.14]], but were ultimately cut before being included in any stable release. The old version had a more conventional approach to learning magic, but used 2 of their EP (HP and MP combined) for each MP spent. They were also subject to several special cases (complete immunity to all forms of [[fire]] including [[hellfire]], [[spell hunger]] caused [[magical contamination]], only certain methods of [[channeling]] worked).

@@ Line 84: / Line 84: @@
 Other than that, poison immunity is helpful to survive the earlier portions of the game, and Djinn are passable in "pure" melee combat.
 {{species_aptitudes|Djinni}}
@@ Line 93: / Line 92: @@
 Traditional, spell granting "magic" gods are unavailable for Djinn, but most other religions are reasonable to choose from:
-*[[Ashenzari]] is a generally strong god who offers skill boosts. Since Djinn can't worship Vehumet, Ash is the only god that directly boosts your spellcasting.
+*[[Ashenzari]] is a generally strong god who offers skill boosts. Since Djinn can't worship Vehumet, Ash is the only god that can lower your spell failure rates directly.
 *[[Makhleb]] recovers HP on kill, which lets you cast spells more freely; a moderately strong god choice for spellcasting Djinn.
 *[[Elyvilon]] can be a good choice for the HP restoration, while [[The Shining One]] acts like Makhleb against undead and demonic creatures. Mind that you can still get [[evil]] spells when worshipping a good god, which the god will prevent you from casting.

@@ Line 72: / Line 72: @@
 Djinn, in many ways, are simpler spellcasters. Players don't have to worry about running out of MP, decide which spell schools to train, or even choose which spells to learn! However, magic-using Djinn have to be careful about their HP reserves, especially in dangerous situations where a few extra HP could make the difference between life and death. Also, they must adapt to whatever random spells they get, which may not synergize well with their current abilities or the player's preferred playstyle.
-Djinn have +11 aptitudes in magic, but are forced to train all skills equally. At the start of the game, this equates to training a single school at a -3.3 aptitude. But by the time a caster reaches mid-game, their effective aptitude is higher than -3 in practice.<ref>
+Djinn have +11 aptitudes in magic, but are forced to train all skills equally. At the start of the game, this equates to training a single school at a -2.8 aptitude. But by the time a caster reaches mid-game, their effective aptitude is much higher than this in practice.<ref>
 Djinn split XP between 11 skills at a +11 aptitude. As XP cost = <code>2^(-apt/4)</code>, each skill level costs <code>2^(-11/4) * 12</code> = 1.63x the XP of a single skill. This equates to training a single "skill" at <code>-4 * log2(1.63)</code> = -2.84 aptitude. However, this "skill" includes both [every Spell School] and Spellcasting. Once you take that into account, Djinn are better than a -2.84 aptitude suggests. Say you want to cast a [[Conjurations]] spell:
-*If you were playing a [[Kobold]] (who have flat 0 magic aptitudes) and ''only'' cared about [[spell power]], you would train to {5 Spellcasting, 15 Conjurations}. This would cost 7275 skill points.
+*If you were playing a [[Kobold]] (with flat 0 magic aptitudes) and ''only'' cared about [[spell power]], you would train to {5 Spellcasting, 15 Conjurations}. This would cost 7275 skill points.
 *A Djinn would reach the same amount of power at {13 Spellcasting, 13 Conjurations}. Each of the 11 skills costs 713 skill points, or 7843 skill points in total. This is only +7.8% more XP than the Kobold, or a '''-0.43''' aptitude. This happens because going from 12 -> 13 in a skill is cheaper than going from 14 -> 15 in a skill.
 *In practice, spell power isn't everything. The Kobold may want to train more Spellcasting, for either MP or spell level purposes. Said Kobold at {10 Spellcasting, 13.5 Conjurations} would reach the same power, but at a cost of 7913 skill points. Because Djinn don't need to spend XP for MP or spell levels, they can invest more into spell power.