Module talk:Table of monsters - Revision history

Regret-index: v_v

2026-01-30T04:58:39Z

v_v

Wwf: Just comparing suggestion with existing implementation of monster spells.

2022-04-09T06:56:35Z

Just comparing suggestion with existing implementation of monster spells.

Wwf: Propose additional table to add weaponry and armour information for monsters that use them.

2022-04-09T06:52:05Z

Propose additional table to add weaponry and armour information for monsters that use them.

NormalPerson7: Add preferred options list.

2018-08-08T18:41:46Z

Add preferred options list.

NormalPerson7 at 18:10, 8 August 2018

2018-08-08T18:10:12Z

Spudwalt at 17:26, 8 August 2018

2018-08-08T17:26:46Z

Ge0ff: Starting equipment and base stats

2018-08-08T13:58:14Z

Starting equipment and base stats

Spudwalt: /* Technical help please */

2018-07-30T17:15:34Z

‎Technical help please

NormalPerson7: Respond to spudwalt

2018-07-30T07:19:58Z

Respond to spudwalt

Spudwalt: /* Technical help please */ Seems like it's okay?

2018-07-30T01:03:34Z

‎Technical help please: Seems like it's okay?

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:58, 30 January 2026
Line 79:		Line 79:
	::: --[[User:NormalPerson7\|NormalPerson7]] ([[User talk:NormalPerson7\|talk]]) 20:41, 8 August 2018 (CEST)		::: --[[User:NormalPerson7\|NormalPerson7]] ([[User talk:NormalPerson7\|talk]]) 20:41, 8 August 2018 (CEST)
	::::I think that trying to summarize the AC and EV of a monster capable of wearing armour is not something that can easily be integrated into the stat table. Even the attack information is inadequate when the monster could be wielding a randart. For monsters that can wield weapons and wear armour why don't we just list AC as ''xx'' + '''armour''', EV as ''yy'' - '''encumbrance''', and Attack as ''zz'' + '''weapon''' in the stat table. A new table (and explaining text) called ''Weapons and Armour'' could be added under '''Useful Info''' or '''Tips and Tricks'''. The new table can describe the variety of gear the monster could spawn with and complement the individualized text in the existing sections. Creation of this table can be handled in the same way as the stats table included by all monster pages. A separate ''Monster Weapons and Armour'' page could be created to complement this table. This suggestion is not much different than how existing monster spells are handled --[[User:Wwf\|Wwf]] ([[User talk:Wwf\|talk]]) 08:52, 9 April 2022 (CEST)		::::I think that trying to summarize the AC and EV of a monster capable of wearing armour is not something that can easily be integrated into the stat table. Even the attack information is inadequate when the monster could be wielding a randart. For monsters that can wield weapons and wear armour why don't we just list AC as ''xx'' + '''armour''', EV as ''yy'' - '''encumbrance''', and Attack as ''zz'' + '''weapon''' in the stat table. A new table (and explaining text) called ''Weapons and Armour'' could be added under '''Useful Info''' or '''Tips and Tricks'''. The new table can describe the variety of gear the monster could spawn with and complement the individualized text in the existing sections. Creation of this table can be handled in the same way as the stats table included by all monster pages. A separate ''Monster Weapons and Armour'' page could be created to complement this table. This suggestion is not much different than how existing monster spells are handled --[[User:Wwf\|Wwf]] ([[User talk:Wwf\|talk]]) 08:52, 9 April 2022 (CEST)
		+
		+	==Why in the world are we doing this this way==
		+	This page is immensely fragile, trivially breaks all the other non-obsolete monster pages if somebody puts it in wrong, and the scripts for autoscraping it were apparently years out of date eight years ago! Manually editing this in when there's easily trunk backlogs of dozens of new monsters drastically slows down writing strategic data, while the exact numbers on the sides have been slowly obsoleted by the in-game examination page getting more detailed, source-diving, and the monster look-up bots.
		+
		+	Somebody 1000% needs to make a new script scraping the .yaml files to fill this page up with rather than adding even more obstacles to this precariously limited game knowledge arrangement.
		+
		+	--[[User:Regret-index\|Regret-index]] ([[User talk:Regret-index\|talk]]) 05:58, 30 January 2026 (CET)

@@ Line 78: / Line 78: @@
 ::: * Show the adjusted AC
 ::: --[[User:NormalPerson7|NormalPerson7]] ([[User talk:NormalPerson7|talk]]) 20:41, 8 August 2018 (CEST)
-::::I think that trying to summarize the AC and EV of a monster capable of wearing armour is not something that can easily be integrated into the stat table. Even the attack information is inadequate when the monster could be wielding a randart. For monsters that can wield weapons and wear armour why don't we just list AC as ''xx'' + '''armour''', EV as ''yy'' - '''encumbrance''', and Attack as ''zz'' + '''weapon''' in the stat table. A new table (and explaining text) called ''Weapons and Armour'' could be added under '''Useful Info''' or '''Tips and Tricks'''. The new table can describe the variety of gear the monster could spawn with and complement the individualized text in the existing sections.  Creation of this table can be handled in the same way as the stats table included by all monster pages. A separate ''Monster Weapons and Armour'' page could be created to complement this table. --[[User:Wwf|Wwf]] ([[User talk:Wwf|talk]]) 08:52, 9 April 2022 (CEST)
+::::I think that trying to summarize the AC and EV of a monster capable of wearing armour is not something that can easily be integrated into the stat table. Even the attack information is inadequate when the monster could be wielding a randart. For monsters that can wield weapons and wear armour why don't we just list AC as ''xx'' + '''armour''', EV as ''yy'' - '''encumbrance''', and Attack as ''zz'' + '''weapon''' in the stat table. A new table (and explaining text) called ''Weapons and Armour'' could be added under '''Useful Info''' or '''Tips and Tricks'''. The new table can describe the variety of gear the monster could spawn with and complement the individualized text in the existing sections.  Creation of this table can be handled in the same way as the stats table included by all monster pages. A separate ''Monster Weapons and Armour'' page could be created to complement this table. This suggestion is not much different than how existing monster spells are handled --[[User:Wwf|Wwf]] ([[User talk:Wwf|talk]]) 08:52, 9 April 2022 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:52, 9 April 2022
Line 78:		Line 78:
	::: * Show the adjusted AC		::: * Show the adjusted AC
	::: --[[User:NormalPerson7\|NormalPerson7]] ([[User talk:NormalPerson7\|talk]]) 20:41, 8 August 2018 (CEST)		::: --[[User:NormalPerson7\|NormalPerson7]] ([[User talk:NormalPerson7\|talk]]) 20:41, 8 August 2018 (CEST)
		+	::::I think that trying to summarize the AC and EV of a monster capable of wearing armour is not something that can easily be integrated into the stat table. Even the attack information is inadequate when the monster could be wielding a randart. For monsters that can wield weapons and wear armour why don't we just list AC as ''xx'' + '''armour''', EV as ''yy'' - '''encumbrance''', and Attack as ''zz'' + '''weapon''' in the stat table. A new table (and explaining text) called ''Weapons and Armour'' could be added under '''Useful Info''' or '''Tips and Tricks'''. The new table can describe the variety of gear the monster could spawn with and complement the individualized text in the existing sections. Creation of this table can be handled in the same way as the stats table included by all monster pages. A separate ''Monster Weapons and Armour'' page could be created to complement this table. --[[User:Wwf\|Wwf]] ([[User talk:Wwf\|talk]]) 08:52, 9 April 2022 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:41, 8 August 2018
Line 72:		Line 72:
	::I think the best option would be to find a way to cite both AC/EV with no armour and AC/EV with standard armours for that monster, however this would require updating the script which converts this Module into the <nowiki>{{monster data}}</nowiki> template. If that is not an option, I would suggest '''using the base values is best''' and then making sure the article comments about the standard armour/equipment of the monster. I prefer this approach because monsters can have many different armours; for example you can find regular orcs wearing anything from robes to chain mail, and an orc in robes will have very different stats to one in chain mail - therefore quoting any particular average of these stats is not a good representation. For example, for orc warriors, you could write in the article, "Orc warriors that generate naturally wear either a chain mail or a plate armour, rarely with an ego. This means their actual AC is 8 or 10, for each armour respectively, and their actual EV is...".		::I think the best option would be to find a way to cite both AC/EV with no armour and AC/EV with standard armours for that monster, however this would require updating the script which converts this Module into the <nowiki>{{monster data}}</nowiki> template. If that is not an option, I would suggest '''using the base values is best''' and then making sure the article comments about the standard armour/equipment of the monster. I prefer this approach because monsters can have many different armours; for example you can find regular orcs wearing anything from robes to chain mail, and an orc in robes will have very different stats to one in chain mail - therefore quoting any particular average of these stats is not a good representation. For example, for orc warriors, you could write in the article, "Orc warriors that generate naturally wear either a chain mail or a plate armour, rarely with an ego. This means their actual AC is 8 or 10, for each armour respectively, and their actual EV is...".
	::Side note that is irrelevant to this discussion: monster max HP ranges are universally inaccurate at the moment; it only requires a simple knowledge bot search to find that, for example, hydras have max HP in the range of 54-88 instead of the 47-96 cited on the wiki. I don't know how to fix this. --[[User:NormalPerson7\|NormalPerson7]] ([[User talk:NormalPerson7\|talk]]) 20:10, 8 August 2018 (CEST)		::Side note that is irrelevant to this discussion: monster max HP ranges are universally inaccurate at the moment; it only requires a simple knowledge bot search to find that, for example, hydras have max HP in the range of 54-88 instead of the 47-96 cited on the wiki. I don't know how to fix this. --[[User:NormalPerson7\|NormalPerson7]] ([[User talk:NormalPerson7\|talk]]) 20:10, 8 August 2018 (CEST)
		+	:::Having thought on this more and discussing this with Ge0ff, I think my preferred options in listed order are:
		+	::: * Make a new template which shows monsters' standard starting equipment in detail, to outline the monster's stats for a particular armour and weapon
		+	::: * Modify the script to show both base AC and average adjusted AC
		+	::: * Show the base AC and clarify in the article what the adjusted AC values are and the monsters' standard armours
		+	::: * Show the adjusted AC
		+	::: --[[User:NormalPerson7\|NormalPerson7]] ([[User talk:NormalPerson7\|talk]]) 20:41, 8 August 2018 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:10, 8 August 2018
Line 70:		Line 70:
	:I had mostly been using the base values since we don't include any other equipment bonuses in the monster data tables (like weapons or cloaks, for example) and because a lot of monsters with armor can have different types of armor (orc priests, for example, can have anywhere from leather to chain (if I'm reading mon-gear.cc right), which will greatly affect how well various types of attacks work on them).		:I had mostly been using the base values since we don't include any other equipment bonuses in the monster data tables (like weapons or cloaks, for example) and because a lot of monsters with armor can have different types of armor (orc priests, for example, can have anywhere from leather to chain (if I'm reading mon-gear.cc right), which will greatly affect how well various types of attacks work on them).
	:I personally would use the base values and then just kinda mentally compute the stats based on individual monsters' armor (okay, orc warriors in general just have 13 EV, but that one over there is wearing plate, so it'd have 10 AC and low EV), but I see your point about values that players are more likely to see being more helpful in general. What are other people's votes? [[User:Spudwalt\|--spudwalt]] ([[User talk:Spudwalt\|talk]]) 19:26, 8 August 2018 (CEST)		:I personally would use the base values and then just kinda mentally compute the stats based on individual monsters' armor (okay, orc warriors in general just have 13 EV, but that one over there is wearing plate, so it'd have 10 AC and low EV), but I see your point about values that players are more likely to see being more helpful in general. What are other people's votes? [[User:Spudwalt\|--spudwalt]] ([[User talk:Spudwalt\|talk]]) 19:26, 8 August 2018 (CEST)
		+	::I think the best option would be to find a way to cite both AC/EV with no armour and AC/EV with standard armours for that monster, however this would require updating the script which converts this Module into the <nowiki>{{monster data}}</nowiki> template. If that is not an option, I would suggest '''using the base values is best''' and then making sure the article comments about the standard armour/equipment of the monster. I prefer this approach because monsters can have many different armours; for example you can find regular orcs wearing anything from robes to chain mail, and an orc in robes will have very different stats to one in chain mail - therefore quoting any particular average of these stats is not a good representation. For example, for orc warriors, you could write in the article, "Orc warriors that generate naturally wear either a chain mail or a plate armour, rarely with an ego. This means their actual AC is 8 or 10, for each armour respectively, and their actual EV is...".
		+	::Side note that is irrelevant to this discussion: monster max HP ranges are universally inaccurate at the moment; it only requires a simple knowledge bot search to find that, for example, hydras have max HP in the range of 54-88 instead of the 47-96 cited on the wiki. I don't know how to fix this. --[[User:NormalPerson7\|NormalPerson7]] ([[User talk:NormalPerson7\|talk]]) 20:10, 8 August 2018 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:26, 8 August 2018
Line 68:		Line 68:
	I suggest that we continue using AC and EV values from the knowledge bots because those are more useful.		I suggest that we continue using AC and EV values from the knowledge bots because those are more useful.
	[[User:Ge0ff\|Ge0ff]] ([[User talk:Ge0ff\|talk]]) 15:58, 8 August 2018 (CEST)		[[User:Ge0ff\|Ge0ff]] ([[User talk:Ge0ff\|talk]]) 15:58, 8 August 2018 (CEST)
		+	:I had mostly been using the base values since we don't include any other equipment bonuses in the monster data tables (like weapons or cloaks, for example) and because a lot of monsters with armor can have different types of armor (orc priests, for example, can have anywhere from leather to chain (if I'm reading mon-gear.cc right), which will greatly affect how well various types of attacks work on them).
		+	:I personally would use the base values and then just kinda mentally compute the stats based on individual monsters' armor (okay, orc warriors in general just have 13 EV, but that one over there is wearing plate, so it'd have 10 AC and low EV), but I see your point about values that players are more likely to see being more helpful in general. What are other people's votes? [[User:Spudwalt\|--spudwalt]] ([[User talk:Spudwalt\|talk]]) 19:26, 8 August 2018 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:58, 8 August 2018
Line 57:		Line 57:
	:::It's always that one missing punctuation mark, isn't it? And the "'''Script error'''" message you get when something goes horribly wrong is distinctly unhelpful for figuring out ''what'' went wrong.		:::It's always that one missing punctuation mark, isn't it? And the "'''Script error'''" message you get when something goes horribly wrong is distinctly unhelpful for figuring out ''what'' went wrong.
	:::Yaaaaaay coding. [[User:Spudwalt\|--spudwalt]] ([[User talk:Spudwalt\|talk]]) 19:15, 30 July 2018 (CEST)		:::Yaaaaaay coding. [[User:Spudwalt\|--spudwalt]] ([[User talk:Spudwalt\|talk]]) 19:15, 30 July 2018 (CEST)
		+
		+	==Starting equipment and base stats==
		+
		+	Recently several editors have started using AC/EV values from mon-data.h instead of values from the knowledge bots, and I don't understand why.
		+
		+	AC and EV from mon-data.h are just the base values, they are not really useful since some monsters have starting equipment. For example, Asterion's base stats are 4 AC/4 EV (see [https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/stone_soup-0.21/crawl-ref/source/mon-data.h#L6536 mon-data.h]), but he always spawns with a leather armour/ring mail/scale mail/chain mail (see [https://github.com/crawl/crawl/blob/stone_soup-0.21/crawl-ref/source/mon-gear.cc#L1800 mon-gear.cc]).
		+	Knowledge bots get the stats from the monster utility which creates 100 monsters of the requested type (with armour!) and then calculates the average values for AC, EV and XP. That's why you get "AC/EV: 10/1" for Asterion from the bots.
		+	A more extreme example would be orc warriors: the base stats are 0 AC/13 EV, but they always spawn with either a chain mail or plate armour, so the average values are 9 AC/10 EV.
		+
		+	I suggest that we continue using AC and EV values from the knowledge bots because those are more useful.
		+	[[User:Ge0ff\|Ge0ff]] ([[User talk:Ge0ff\|talk]]) 15:58, 8 August 2018 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:15, 30 July 2018
Line 55:		Line 55:
	::Ge0ff applied the fix to this before you came to look at it. Thanks anyway; yes it's working fine now. If you look closely, more closely than I did in staring at this for half an hour (god this system is awful) then you will find I missed a single quotation mark on the Warm blood flag.		::Ge0ff applied the fix to this before you came to look at it. Thanks anyway; yes it's working fine now. If you look closely, more closely than I did in staring at this for half an hour (god this system is awful) then you will find I missed a single quotation mark on the Warm blood flag.
	::For now, no more action is required on this thread; at least for now. --[[User:NormalPerson7\|NormalPerson7]] ([[User talk:NormalPerson7\|talk]]) 09:19, 30 July 2018 (CEST)		::For now, no more action is required on this thread; at least for now. --[[User:NormalPerson7\|NormalPerson7]] ([[User talk:NormalPerson7\|talk]]) 09:19, 30 July 2018 (CEST)
		+	:::It's always that one missing punctuation mark, isn't it? And the "'''Script error'''" message you get when something goes horribly wrong is distinctly unhelpful for figuring out ''what'' went wrong.
		+	:::Yaaaaaay coding. [[User:Spudwalt\|--spudwalt]] ([[User talk:Spudwalt\|talk]]) 19:15, 30 July 2018 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:19, 30 July 2018
Line 53:		Line 53:
	:Looks to me like everything's working normally? Well, apart from the fact "imperial" in the name isn't supposed to be capitalized, but I've already fixed that.		:Looks to me like everything's working normally? Well, apart from the fact "imperial" in the name isn't supposed to be capitalized, but I've already fixed that.
	:Sometimes the wiki takes a little bit to update after saving the edit, so maybe you were running into that delay? The only other think I can see is the spaces between the flags, but since the article is displaying normally for me, I don't think it matters if those are there or not. [[User:Spudwalt\|--spudwalt]] ([[User talk:Spudwalt\|talk]]) 03:03, 30 July 2018 (CEST)		:Sometimes the wiki takes a little bit to update after saving the edit, so maybe you were running into that delay? The only other think I can see is the spaces between the flags, but since the article is displaying normally for me, I don't think it matters if those are there or not. [[User:Spudwalt\|--spudwalt]] ([[User talk:Spudwalt\|talk]]) 03:03, 30 July 2018 (CEST)
		+	::Ge0ff applied the fix to this before you came to look at it. Thanks anyway; yes it's working fine now. If you look closely, more closely than I did in staring at this for half an hour (god this system is awful) then you will find I missed a single quotation mark on the Warm blood flag.
		+	::For now, no more action is required on this thread; at least for now. --[[User:NormalPerson7\|NormalPerson7]] ([[User talk:NormalPerson7\|talk]]) 09:19, 30 July 2018 (CEST)

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:03, 30 July 2018
Line 51:		Line 51:
	}		}
	--[[User:NormalPerson7\|NormalPerson7]] ([[User talk:NormalPerson7\|talk]]) 22:39, 29 July 2018 (CEST)		--[[User:NormalPerson7\|NormalPerson7]] ([[User talk:NormalPerson7\|talk]]) 22:39, 29 July 2018 (CEST)
		+	:Looks to me like everything's working normally? Well, apart from the fact "imperial" in the name isn't supposed to be capitalized, but I've already fixed that.
		+	:Sometimes the wiki takes a little bit to update after saving the edit, so maybe you were running into that delay? The only other think I can see is the spaces between the flags, but since the article is displaying normally for me, I don't think it matters if those are there or not. [[User:Spudwalt\|--spudwalt]] ([[User talk:Spudwalt\|talk]]) 03:03, 30 July 2018 (CEST)