Talk:ARCHIVED Buddy23Lee's Minotaur Staff-Madness guide - Revision history

Qqqqwe2: Qqqqwe2 moved page Talk:Buddy23Lee's Minotaur Staff-Madness guide to Talk:ARCHIVED Buddy23Lee's Minotaur Staff-Madness guide: old, questionable advice (wandering the abyss for xp is not a good idea)

2024-08-30T18:34:43Z

Qqqqwe2 moved page Talk:Buddy23Lee's Minotaur Staff-Madness guide to Talk:ARCHIVED Buddy23Lee's Minotaur Staff-Madness guide: old, questionable advice (wandering the abyss for xp is not a good idea)

Buddy23Lee: Buddy23Lee moved page Talk:ARCHIVED Buddy23Lee's Minotaur Staff-Master guide to Talk:Buddy23Lee's Minotaur Staff-Madness guide: master -> madness, lest it be misleading

2015-08-12T19:04:19Z

Buddy23Lee moved page Talk:ARCHIVED Buddy23Lee's Minotaur Staff-Master guide to Talk:Buddy23Lee's Minotaur Staff-Madness guide: master -> madness, lest it be misleading

Buddy23Lee: Left belated followup

2015-08-12T19:00:15Z

Left belated followup

MoogleDan at 13:36, 9 January 2015

2015-01-09T13:36:52Z

Majang: why retired?

2015-01-09T09:58:12Z

why retired?

MoogleDan: MoogleDan moved page Talk:Buddy23Lee's Minotaur Staff-Master guide to Talk:ARCHIVED Buddy23Lee's Minotaur Staff-Master guide without leaving a redirect

2015-01-07T16:07:37Z

MoogleDan moved page Talk:Buddy23Lee's Minotaur Staff-Master guide to Talk:ARCHIVED Buddy23Lee's Minotaur Staff-Master guide without leaving a redirect

Majang: suggestion for alternative background

2014-11-17T07:21:44Z

suggestion for alternative background

MoogleDan at 14:40, 4 August 2014

2014-08-04T14:40:54Z

MoogleDan at 12:39, 4 August 2014

2014-08-04T12:39:19Z

Majang: non-resistible?

2014-08-04T12:15:35Z

non-resistible?

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	: Well, the misleading aspect is honestly pretty accurate, and until that's fixed, it shouldn't be included in the Character Guides. While I recognize this isn't designed to be an efficient or particularly min/maxed character by any means, there's a lot of bad advice in here. Raising a magic skill to exceptionally high levels with no intent of using any of the spells contained within is just a massive waste of experience and turns. Suggesting the player farm experience in the Abyss is really unnecessary (and tends to result in all kinds of miserable malmutations). The worst part here is simply that the guide seems to think that magic-heavy characters with staves are inherently equal to or better at melee than heavily-armoured brutes with massive weapons; while it's true that a staff of earth can land very heavy blows, it's a phenomenally large investment for at most an incremental improvement in performance over a well enchanted lajatang of speed or holy wrath with maxed out Fighting skills. In both cases you wind up with extremely capable weapons. And if your argument is that the staff lets you use a shield, sure, that's true, but so does a demon whip / sacred scourge / eveningstar. Meanwhile, all that Earth Magic XP could be put in all sorts of other places to very significant effect (better defenses, Charms/Air Magic/Translocations for awesome spells, Evocations for cool non-spell spells, Stealth for stabbin', etc.). I realize there's something fun about the idea of using the staff of earth as a brutal beating stick, but the core principle of this guide could basically be summed up as, "In the extended-game, you can train staves to 12 and Earth Magic to 27 and get a really great one-handed weapon." While I admit the idea is kind of fun, that's a LOT of excessive XP-burning. The fact that you came up with a better, more efficient build that largely involves using Maces & Flails for the majority of the game does not speak well of a "staff-master" guide. --[[User:MoogleDan\|MoogleDan]] ([[User talk:MoogleDan\|talk]]) 14:36, 9 January 2015 (CET)		: Well, the misleading aspect is honestly pretty accurate, and until that's fixed, it shouldn't be included in the Character Guides. While I recognize this isn't designed to be an efficient or particularly min/maxed character by any means, there's a lot of bad advice in here. Raising a magic skill to exceptionally high levels with no intent of using any of the spells contained within is just a massive waste of experience and turns. Suggesting the player farm experience in the Abyss is really unnecessary (and tends to result in all kinds of miserable malmutations). The worst part here is simply that the guide seems to think that magic-heavy characters with staves are inherently equal to or better at melee than heavily-armoured brutes with massive weapons; while it's true that a staff of earth can land very heavy blows, it's a phenomenally large investment for at most an incremental improvement in performance over a well enchanted lajatang of speed or holy wrath with maxed out Fighting skills. In both cases you wind up with extremely capable weapons. And if your argument is that the staff lets you use a shield, sure, that's true, but so does a demon whip / sacred scourge / eveningstar. Meanwhile, all that Earth Magic XP could be put in all sorts of other places to very significant effect (better defenses, Charms/Air Magic/Translocations for awesome spells, Evocations for cool non-spell spells, Stealth for stabbin', etc.). I realize there's something fun about the idea of using the staff of earth as a brutal beating stick, but the core principle of this guide could basically be summed up as, "In the extended-game, you can train staves to 12 and Earth Magic to 27 and get a really great one-handed weapon." While I admit the idea is kind of fun, that's a LOT of excessive XP-burning. The fact that you came up with a better, more efficient build that largely involves using Maces & Flails for the majority of the game does not speak well of a "staff-master" guide. --[[User:MoogleDan\|MoogleDan]] ([[User talk:MoogleDan\|talk]]) 14:36, 9 January 2015 (CET)
		+	You’ll have to forgive my extended absence; my wife gave birth to our first child earlier this year and attending to my Crawl Wiki guides took a backseat to consuming endeavor of childrearing.
		+	Dan, you know I respect your work and wisdom. While achieving my guide is perhaps not how I would have preferred you had handled your problems with it, I do believe I understand where you are coming from and I’ve tried to take your criticisms quite seriously and work to ameliorate rather than get quarrelsome about it.
		+	Reading your above critique about my guide, it would seem that it mostly boils down to the distribution of experience points, to wit: that this type of crazy, magic-ish warrior could be equal to, or even surpass the orthodox strategy of a pugilistic minotaur.
		+	It’s a valid point that what was once the sole guide on the melee-centric minotaur could put people down this unusual path when it’s pretty clearly for a dungeon crawler of a more eccentric (read: not pragmatic) bent. Because of this, and the potential of leading crawlers astray, I will revise the guide, applying my own disclaimer (in addition to all the wiki-formatted ones which already exist), in my own words, doing my best to keep inexperienced crawler from going down the perhaps silly paths I have tread. In fact, I will even change the title of the guide, so that no one is misled or beguiled by the word ‘master’.
		+	I hope this helps satisfy your concerns, and I would urge you to voice them to me as soon as they arise (for example, my minotaur guide existed on the wiki for 6 months before you mentioned any of this and shelved it). You know that while we clearly have very different opinions on what constitutes a worthwhile crawl experience, we still share the same ends on trying to make this wiki the best it can be, for both novice and expert dungeon crawler alike. --[[User:Buddy23Lee\|Buddy23Lee]] ([[User talk:Buddy23Lee\|talk]]) 21:00, 12 August 2015 (CEST)

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	Within a week this guide has first been flagged to be misleading, and then archived. Why? I don't think it is in any way obsolete, and following this guide has given me a couple of fun games. And like all of Buddy23Lee's guides it was very well written. What was wrong? [[User:Majang\|Majang]] ([[User talk:Majang\|talk]]) 10:58, 9 January 2015 (CET)		Within a week this guide has first been flagged to be misleading, and then archived. Why? I don't think it is in any way obsolete, and following this guide has given me a couple of fun games. And like all of Buddy23Lee's guides it was very well written. What was wrong? [[User:Majang\|Majang]] ([[User talk:Majang\|talk]]) 10:58, 9 January 2015 (CET)
		+
		+	: Well, the misleading aspect is honestly pretty accurate, and until that's fixed, it shouldn't be included in the Character Guides. While I recognize this isn't designed to be an efficient or particularly min/maxed character by any means, there's a lot of bad advice in here. Raising a magic skill to exceptionally high levels with no intent of using any of the spells contained within is just a massive waste of experience and turns. Suggesting the player farm experience in the Abyss is really unnecessary (and tends to result in all kinds of miserable malmutations). The worst part here is simply that the guide seems to think that magic-heavy characters with staves are inherently equal to or better at melee than heavily-armoured brutes with massive weapons; while it's true that a staff of earth can land very heavy blows, it's a phenomenally large investment for at most an incremental improvement in performance over a well enchanted lajatang of speed or holy wrath with maxed out Fighting skills. In both cases you wind up with extremely capable weapons. And if your argument is that the staff lets you use a shield, sure, that's true, but so does a demon whip / sacred scourge / eveningstar. Meanwhile, all that Earth Magic XP could be put in all sorts of other places to very significant effect (better defenses, Charms/Air Magic/Translocations for awesome spells, Evocations for cool non-spell spells, Stealth for stabbin', etc.). I realize there's something fun about the idea of using the staff of earth as a brutal beating stick, but the core principle of this guide could basically be summed up as, "In the extended-game, you can train staves to 12 and Earth Magic to 27 and get a really great one-handed weapon." While I admit the idea is kind of fun, that's a LOT of excessive XP-burning. The fact that you came up with a better, more efficient build that largely involves using Maces & Flails for the majority of the game does not speak well of a "staff-master" guide. --[[User:MoogleDan\|MoogleDan]] ([[User talk:MoogleDan\|talk]]) 14:36, 9 January 2015 (CET)

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	I really like this guide. Right now I am playing it, but I started out as a minotoaur [[fighter]], taking the [[flail]] as starting weapon. This gives me the advantage of having immediate shield protection. When a minotaur trains maces and flails up to 14, in the new cross-training system the staves skill automatically climbs to above 9, so there is not such a long way to go to bring it up to the 12 needed for swinging the staff of earth with minimum delay. Maces and flails have excellent one-handed weapons, which give you more flexibility and good fire-power until your earth and evocations skills are strong enough to use your staff. You also may have good special branded weapons for taking out susceptible opponents, for example I use a TSO-blessed [[eveningstar]] against anything susceptible to [[holy wrath]]. So you may want to mention this option of starting out as a flail-armed fighter in your guide. [[User:Majang\|Majang]] ([[User talk:Majang\|talk]]) 08:21, 17 November 2014 (CET)		I really like this guide. Right now I am playing it, but I started out as a minotoaur [[fighter]], taking the [[flail]] as starting weapon. This gives me the advantage of having immediate shield protection. When a minotaur trains maces and flails up to 14, in the new cross-training system the staves skill automatically climbs to above 9, so there is not such a long way to go to bring it up to the 12 needed for swinging the staff of earth with minimum delay. Maces and flails have excellent one-handed weapons, which give you more flexibility and good fire-power until your earth and evocations skills are strong enough to use your staff. You also may have good special branded weapons for taking out susceptible opponents, for example I use a TSO-blessed [[eveningstar]] against anything susceptible to [[holy wrath]]. So you may want to mention this option of starting out as a flail-armed fighter in your guide. [[User:Majang\|Majang]] ([[User talk:Majang\|talk]]) 08:21, 17 November 2014 (CET)
		+
		+	Within a week this guide has first been flagged to be misleading, and then archived. Why? I don't think it is in any way obsolete, and following this guide has given me a couple of fun games. And like all of Buddy23Lee's guides it was very well written. What was wrong? [[User:Majang\|Majang]] ([[User talk:Majang\|talk]]) 10:58, 9 January 2015 (CET)

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	:As for Cerebov winning a straight melee fight, you overestimate the power of that silly greatsword he carries. I'd put my money on the hasted, mighted, well-armoured, rF+++ minotaur smasher over that war toaster any day :P Admittedly, I'd prefer an antimagic lajatang, but this seems like it'd do the job admirably. --[[User:MoogleDan\|MoogleDan]] ([[User talk:MoogleDan\|talk]]) 14:39, 4 August 2014 (CEST)		:As for Cerebov winning a straight melee fight, you overestimate the power of that silly greatsword he carries. I'd put my money on the hasted, mighted, well-armoured, rF+++ minotaur smasher over that war toaster any day :P Admittedly, I'd prefer an antimagic lajatang, but this seems like it'd do the job admirably. --[[User:MoogleDan\|MoogleDan]] ([[User talk:MoogleDan\|talk]]) 14:39, 4 August 2014 (CEST)
		+
		+	I really like this guide. Right now I am playing it, but I started out as a minotoaur [[fighter]], taking the [[flail]] as starting weapon. This gives me the advantage of having immediate shield protection. When a minotaur trains maces and flails up to 14, in the new cross-training system the staves skill automatically climbs to above 9, so there is not such a long way to go to bring it up to the 12 needed for swinging the staff of earth with minimum delay. Maces and flails have excellent one-handed weapons, which give you more flexibility and good fire-power until your earth and evocations skills are strong enough to use your staff. You also may have good special branded weapons for taking out susceptible opponents, for example I use a TSO-blessed [[eveningstar]] against anything susceptible to [[holy wrath]]. So you may want to mention this option of starting out as a flail-armed fighter in your guide. [[User:Majang\|Majang]] ([[User talk:Majang\|talk]]) 08:21, 17 November 2014 (CET)

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	:The wiki admittedly has an issue with this terminology. We interchangably use non-resistible, irresistible, and physical all for the same thing. Personally, I think physical is the best choice, as it brings AC-reduction to mind most clearly, but the game never actually uses the term. Technically, damage reduction from AC isn't ''resistance'', so the other two are also accurate, but I wouldn't mind a hard and fast term being selected here.		:The wiki admittedly has an issue with this terminology. We interchangably use non-resistible, irresistible, and physical all for the same thing. Personally, I think physical is the best choice, as it brings AC-reduction to mind most clearly, but the game never actually uses the term. Technically, damage reduction from AC isn't ''resistance'', so the other two are also accurate, but I wouldn't mind a hard and fast term being selected here.

−	:As for Cerebov winning a straight melee fight, you overestimate the power of that silly greatsword he carries. I'd put my money on the hasted, mighted, well-armoured, rF+++ minotaur smasher over that war toaster any day :P --[[User:MoogleDan\|MoogleDan]] ([[User talk:MoogleDan\|talk]]) 14:39, 4 August 2014 (CEST)	+	:As for Cerebov winning a straight melee fight, you overestimate the power of that silly greatsword he carries. I'd put my money on the hasted, mighted, well-armoured, rF+++ minotaur smasher over that war toaster any day :P Admittedly, I'd prefer an antimagic lajatang, but this seems like it'd do the job admirably. --[[User:MoogleDan\|MoogleDan]] ([[User talk:MoogleDan\|talk]]) 14:39, 4 August 2014 (CEST)

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← Older revision	Revision as of 19:04, 12 August 2015
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	Isn't it saying too much when you claim that a staff of earth deals non-resistible extra damage? The extra damage output is reduced by the AC of the opponent, which for some late-game bosses is quite significant. Cerebov for example has 30 AC, so I guess he will have cut and burned you to pieces before you have him down with the staff of earth. [[User:Majang\|Majang]] ([[User talk:Majang\|talk]]) 14:15, 4 August 2014 (CEST)		Isn't it saying too much when you claim that a staff of earth deals non-resistible extra damage? The extra damage output is reduced by the AC of the opponent, which for some late-game bosses is quite significant. Cerebov for example has 30 AC, so I guess he will have cut and burned you to pieces before you have him down with the staff of earth. [[User:Majang\|Majang]] ([[User talk:Majang\|talk]]) 14:15, 4 August 2014 (CEST)
		+	:The wiki admittedly has an issue with this terminology. We interchangably use non-resistible, irresistible, and physical all for the same thing. Personally, I think physical is the best choice, as it brings AC-reduction to mind most clearly, but the game never actually uses the term. Technically, damage reduction from AC isn't ''resistance'', so the other two are also accurate, but I wouldn't mind a hard and fast term being selected here.
		+
		+	:As for Cerebov winning a straight melee fight, you overestimate the power of that silly greatsword he carries. I'd put my money on the hasted, mighted, well-armoured, rF+++ minotaur smasher over that war toaster any day :P --[[User:MoogleDan\|MoogleDan]] ([[User talk:MoogleDan\|talk]]) 14:39, 4 August 2014 (CEST)

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	:::Right, didn`t think that part through ; ) --[[User:BlueCrake\|BlueCrake]] ([[User talk:BlueCrake\|talk]]) 19:51, 7 June 2014 (CEST)		:::Right, didn`t think that part through ; ) --[[User:BlueCrake\|BlueCrake]] ([[User talk:BlueCrake\|talk]]) 19:51, 7 June 2014 (CEST)
		+
		+	Isn't it saying too much when you claim that a staff of earth deals non-resistible extra damage? The extra damage output is reduced by the AC of the opponent, which for some late-game bosses is quite significant. Cerebov for example has 30 AC, so I guess he will have cut and burned you to pieces before you have him down with the staff of earth. [[User:Majang\|Majang]] ([[User talk:Majang\|talk]]) 14:15, 4 August 2014 (CEST)