Template talk:Advicealt - Revision history

Spudwalt at 03:04, 28 January 2022

2022-01-28T03:04:03Z

Hordes at 19:16, 27 January 2022

2022-01-27T19:16:50Z

Hordes at 19:11, 27 January 2022

2022-01-27T19:11:35Z

Ge0ff: re: a disclaimer about disclaimers

2022-01-26T20:39:10Z

re: a disclaimer about disclaimers

Spudwalt: Re: Template for "potentially dubious strategy sections"

2022-01-26T07:09:05Z

Re: Template for "potentially dubious strategy sections"

New page

So, I feel that templates like this are useful on the pages that are primarily strategy-guide type stuff ([[Choosing a god]], [[Escaping from (and avoiding) trouble]], [[Background and race combinations for beginners]], etc). There's probably a few more pages where this sort of template would probably apply, but that's the general idea of where I would put this sort of disclaimer.

However, a great many pages on here have strategy ''sections''. (The god pages, the species pages, the unrandart pages, the monster pages, the spell pages...) Do we feel that every single instance of such sections on this wiki merits a disclaimer saying "This might not be up-to-date/helpful"? (We also already have a version template to indicate when pages are out of date and may no longer be accurate.) How do we choose where to apply the template and where the advice we give is "good enough"? ''Can'' we make that choice, knowing that any strategy suggestion in a game as complex as ''Dungeon Crawl'' is going to be at least partially subject to a player's equipment/situation/preferred playstyle/dumb luck?

If a strategy section is out of date or not good, wouldn't it be better to just update or improve it instead of slapping a disclaimer saying "maybe don't pay attention to this part" on it? (For questions on whether a strategy is worth using, there's always the Talk Pages on articles.)

If we have no confidence in the advice we're giving even when it ''is'' up to date, why are we even bothering to give advice at all?

I personally feel the version template is as good a warning as any that an article might not be applicable to the latest version, with the addition of the Template:Advice disclaimer for any page that is entirely strategy suggestions/advice with no raw data. Anyone else want to weigh in on this? [[User:Spudwalt|--spudwalt]] ([[User talk:Spudwalt|talk]]) 08:09, 26 January 2022 (CET)

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	:: I'm pretty comfortable with the disclaimers as is (pre this template). Readers may want to go to a specific page and simply ignore the main page, like looking up the specifics of a god. --[[User:Hordes\|Hordes]] ([[User talk:Hordes\|talk]]) 20:11, 27 January 2022 (CET)		:: I'm pretty comfortable with the disclaimers as is (pre this template). Readers may want to go to a specific page and simply ignore the main page, like looking up the specifics of a god. --[[User:Hordes\|Hordes]] ([[User talk:Hordes\|talk]]) 20:11, 27 January 2022 (CET)
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		+	:::I would say giving outdated advice is better than making players doubt the advice we're giving them. Oversights happen -- there aren't many editors on this wiki, and we're all only human. We can all work to fix any errors we come across, and for all the ones we miss, eventually someone will notice and fix them or bring them to someone's attention.
		+	:::If we're just slapping a generalized "this advice might be bad" label on advice sections, how are new players with no idea what they're doing supposed to determine which bits of advice they should pay attention to?
		+	:::Also, I'd be down with adding a disclaimer to the front page. [[User:Spudwalt\|--spudwalt]] ([[User talk:Spudwalt\|talk]]) 04:04, 28 January 2022 (CET)

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	:: The thing is, I'm ''not'' confident that the advice given will be up to date, accurate, or good. For example, version bumping without looking at the strategy section - ex. Hep page mentioned ancestor blocking you even in .27. While updating the wiki and giving more accurate information is ideal, with the state of the wiki right now, I am just not very sure that it can be fulfilled. <br>However, an advice section is great as jumping off point, and it's a good place to put weird edge cases or tactics that are objectively right/possible (ex. amulet of faith interaction with Usk, how Foxfire Swarm works). Newcomers who have ''no'' idea how the game works, with a seemingly sound piece of advice that's hard to notice in-game, would be more likely to follow it to a T. Especially when the advice is worded in a way that makes it sound like "the Absolute Truth"; for a weak example, "Jiyva is best used by a high level, late game player character."		:: The thing is, I'm ''not'' confident that the advice given will be up to date, accurate, or good. For example, version bumping without looking at the strategy section - ex. Hep page mentioned ancestor blocking you even in .27. While updating the wiki and giving more accurate information is ideal, with the state of the wiki right now, I am just not very sure that it can be fulfilled. <br>However, an advice section is great as jumping off point, and it's a good place to put weird edge cases or tactics that are objectively right/possible (ex. amulet of faith interaction with Usk, how Foxfire Swarm works). Newcomers who have ''no'' idea how the game works, with a seemingly sound piece of advice that's hard to notice in-game, would be more likely to follow it to a T. Especially when the advice is worded in a way that makes it sound like "the Absolute Truth"; for a weak example, "Jiyva is best used by a high level, late game player character."

−	:: I'm pretty comfortable with the disclaimers as is (pre this template). Readers may want to go to a specific page and simply ignore ~~any pages~~, like looking up the specifics of a god. --[[User:Hordes\|Hordes]] ([[User talk:Hordes\|talk]]) 20:11, 27 January 2022 (CET)	+	:: I'm pretty comfortable with the disclaimers as is (pre this template). Readers may want to go to a specific page and simply ignore the main page, like looking up the specifics of a god. --[[User:Hordes\|Hordes]] ([[User talk:Hordes\|talk]]) 20:11, 27 January 2022 (CET)

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	: Instead, I suggest to add 1 (one and only one) disclaimer to the main page after/instead of the <nowiki>{{spoiler}}</nowiki> warning. Something like a more balanced version of Template:Advicealt (without "outdated" and "ill-advised"), something that reminds players to use their judgement before following any advice. What do you think? --[[User:Ge0ff\|Ge0ff]] ([[User talk:Ge0ff\|talk]]) 21:39, 26 January 2022 (CET)		: Instead, I suggest to add 1 (one and only one) disclaimer to the main page after/instead of the <nowiki>{{spoiler}}</nowiki> warning. Something like a more balanced version of Template:Advicealt (without "outdated" and "ill-advised"), something that reminds players to use their judgement before following any advice. What do you think? --[[User:Ge0ff\|Ge0ff]] ([[User talk:Ge0ff\|talk]]) 21:39, 26 January 2022 (CET)
		+
		+	:: The thing is, I'm ''not'' confident that the advice given will be up to date, accurate, or good. For example, version bumping without looking at the strategy section - ex. Hep page mentioned ancestor blocking you even in .27. While updating the wiki and giving more accurate information is ideal, with the state of the wiki right now, I am just not very sure that it can be fulfilled. <br>However, an advice section is great as jumping off point, and it's a good place to put weird edge cases or tactics that are objectively right/possible (ex. amulet of faith interaction with Usk, how Foxfire Swarm works). Newcomers who have ''no'' idea how the game works, with a seemingly sound piece of advice that's hard to notice in-game, would be more likely to follow it to a T. Especially when the advice is worded in a way that makes it sound like "the Absolute Truth"; for a weak example, "Jiyva is best used by a high level, late game player character."
		+
		+	:: I'm pretty comfortable with the disclaimers as is (pre this template). Readers may want to go to a specific page and simply ignore any pages, like looking up the specifics of a god. --[[User:Hordes\|Hordes]] ([[User talk:Hordes\|talk]]) 20:11, 27 January 2022 (CET)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:39, 26 January 2022
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	I personally feel the version template is as good a warning as any that an article might not be applicable to the latest version, with the addition of the Template:Advice disclaimer for any page that is entirely strategy suggestions/advice with no raw data. Anyone else want to weigh in on this? [[User:Spudwalt\|--spudwalt]] ([[User talk:Spudwalt\|talk]]) 08:09, 26 January 2022 (CET)		I personally feel the version template is as good a warning as any that an article might not be applicable to the latest version, with the addition of the Template:Advice disclaimer for any page that is entirely strategy suggestions/advice with no raw data. Anyone else want to weigh in on this? [[User:Spudwalt\|--spudwalt]] ([[User talk:Spudwalt\|talk]]) 08:09, 26 January 2022 (CET)
		+
		+	: Adding a disclaimer to god pages is definitely an overkill. Disclaimers have a value, but it feels like we are overusing them already.
		+
		+	: Tips and tricks/strategy suggestions/advice with no raw data are ''obviously'' subjective and might contain inaccuracies and errors, even though we constantly improve and update the wiki. It's not like we claim anywhere that the wiki contains the Absolute Truth and describes The Only Correct Way To Play The Game. Come on, our readers are smart enough to understand this and don't need a reminder on each and every page!
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		+	: Instead, I suggest to add 1 (one and only one) disclaimer to the main page after/instead of the <nowiki>{{spoiler}}</nowiki> warning. Something like a more balanced version of Template:Advicealt (without "outdated" and "ill-advised"), something that reminds players to use their judgement before following any advice. What do you think? --[[User:Ge0ff\|Ge0ff]] ([[User talk:Ge0ff\|talk]]) 21:39, 26 January 2022 (CET)