Talk:Missile
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Can anyone provide precise info about the damage, accuracy, and speed of different missiles and launchers? For instance, let's say my Throwing, Darts, Slings, Crossbows, and Bows skills are all at 1 rank. And let's assume I am not wearing a shield, and that all my missiles and launchers are completely non-magical.
- (1) Which will be most accurate: a thrown rock, a rock launched from a sling, a thrown dart, a dart launched from a hand crossbow, a thrown javelin, a bolt launched from a crossbow, or an arrow launched from a bow?
- (2) Which will do the most damage if it hits?
- (3) Which will fire fastest (assuming I do nothing but fire missiles one after another)?
- (4) Does it matter whether my Str is higher than my Dex, or vice versa?
- (5) What if I *am* wearing a shield?
- (6) If the missile is +1, does that effect accuracy, or damage, or both?
- (7) What is the chance of the missile being destroyed?
- (8) What if I threw a dagger, hand axe, or spear instead? Would these have the same accuracy, damage, and speed that they have when wielded?
- (9) If my Throwing skill were 5 instead of 1...
- (9a) Same as (8)
- (9b) Would this be more, less, or exactly as effective as a Dart skill of 5 and Throwing skill of 1 when throwing darts? In other words, do thrown darts use an average of Darts and Throwing skills, or do the two skills govern different aspects of dart throwing, or what?
- (10) Which is the best ranged weapon? ;D
There are many more questions, I think, but that's enough for now. I left blowguns out of this discussion because I felt that they didn't fit, since their main purpose is not damage, but the adminstering of poisons.
Turnerjer 18:54, 12 March 2009 (MDT)
Contents |
Answering the above
Your entry is a little difficult to read; try not to use the indents, the wiki interprets it as a box of code-style text. Putting a : (or ::, :::, and so on) at the beginning of a line will indent. Also signing your post with four tildes will make it easier to see who's saying what.
With that out of the way, I've had a peek at the source to try to find some of these answers. Here's my answer for 3, with version 0.4.3.
(3) Which will fire fastest (assuming I do nothing but fire missiles one after another)?
The fire speed of a launcher is given by two properties: its base speed, and its strength-weighting.
Base speed is how fast it fires normally, but note that lower is better:
Strength-weighting is roughly equivalent to the tension in a bowstring - higher tension means faster arrows. This number is good for strong players; a stronger player can pull more easily on a strong bowstring and get more speed from it. Low numbers mean more dexterity is being used to increase speed, instead of strength.
- blowgun: 0 (no strength required)
- sling: 1 (slings don't have elastic tension, it's mostly dexterity)
- bow: 2
- longbow: 3
- hand crossbow: 5
- crossbow: 8 (highest!)
To answer the question then: blowguns, bows and slings will fire the quickest, everything else is slower. However, strong players will be able to fire the slow weapons more quickly.
A final note about bows; they do have one special treatment the others don't, which is that the speed cap for them is slightly lower (which means faster) than for other launchers. In other words, if you max out all of these launchers with your skills, bows will fire faster than any of them. So perhaps bows are the fastest in the long term.
Hawthorn 09:57, 3 November 2008 (MST)
(5) What if I *am* wearing a shield?
If you're wearing a shield, your rate of fire will be slowed depending on shield size, and on how unwieldy the launcher is. For launchers there are two handednesses: half-handed (needs one hand to hold and fire, but shields interfere a little) and two-handed (shields interfere a lot). Hand crossbows, blowguns and slings are half-handed, the rest require two hands.
The slowdown is here expressed as percentages.
for the buckler (smallest shield): half-handed 105%, two-handed 125%
for the shield: half-handed 125%, two-handed 150%
for the large shield: half-handed 150%, two-handed 200%.
Shields also affect the speed cap: even if your speed is normally maxed, shields will reduce that maximum, by the same amounts given above. This means your throwing skills and strength cannot overcome the penalty of a shield in the long run; for that, you need the Shields skill. The Shields skill, when fully advanced (level 27) will take away half of any speed penalty of any shield. Which doesn't seem like much to me.
(7) What is the chance of the missile being destroyed?
The chances of a missile being destroyed when it hits are:
- dart: 1 in 3
- sling bullets, stones, arrows, bolts: 1 in 4
- poisoned needle: 1 in 6 (reduced to 1 in 3 for curare)
- javelin: 1 in 10
- throwing net: not destroyed (but does get damaged)
- large rock: 1 in 25
(1) Which will be most accurate: a thrown rock, a rock launched from a sling, a thrown dart, a dart launched from a hand crossbow, a thrown javelin, a bolt launched from a crossbow, or an arrow launched from a bow?
The accuracy depends on so many different properties that this will be difficult, but here's my attempt:
For launched weapons, the base accuracy is given; you can see it in game when you examine the launcher.
- longbow: 0 (least accurate)
- bow: 1
- blowgun, sling: 2
- crossbow, hand crossbow: 4 (most accurate)
If the ammo used for the launcher was made by the same race that made the launcher, accuracy increases by 1.
Elves get another point of accuracy if they're using one of their own launchers (presumably bows).
If you're stuck in a net, your accuracy goes down by one point; however, I thought that you couldn't fire out of a net anyway.
If you're firing sling bullets with a sling, that's 4 more accuracy points.
The accuracy is then changed by the skill being used (but not the player's skill level; that comes later)
- darts skill (for needles, not hand crossbows): -1
- bows skill (bows, longbows): -3 (probably because bows are a skillful weapon)
- crossbows skill (for crossbows, hand crossbows): +1 (crossbows are easy for anyone to use)
If you're here, your base accuracy is now fixed, so for launchers, crossbows are most accurate.
But now, you have a random amount of extra accuracy which is decided by your abilities:
If your weapon has a plus to accuracy, then there is a random chance of getting additional accuracy points up to that amount. (so with +3, you may get 1, 2 or 3). There also seems to be an equivalent penalty to accuracy if your weapon has minuses, but I'm not sure (the code actually looks broken to me there) (note: it's not, I misread. It's fine.)
The player's skills are now considered:
- slings skill: + 1.5 x slings skill level
- darts skill: + 1.5 x darts skill level + 0.5 x dex (dex is needed for needles)
- bows skill: + 2 x bows skill level
- crossbows skill: + 1.5 x crossbows skill level + 6 (they make crossbows very easy)
- throwing: + 0.2 x throwing skill level, only if you're using a sling or blowgun.
If you threw or launched the weapon, your dexterity makes it more accurate by dex/2 points. You also get a slaying bonus, but I don't know what that is... the ring of slaying, perhaps?
Finally, you get dex/4 more points of accuracy, just for it being a ranged item (this is so that if it was just something random like a potion, you can still influence it a little).
Thus, for your final accuracy for launchers...
you get the base accuracy, PLUS a random amount of the extra accuracy, which could be none, or it could be all of it. And it adds on a little more for your launcher's plusses, and your ammo plusses.
And that's just for launchers. For thrown missiles, the calculation is this:
base accuracy begins at 0.
+1 for elves with elven weapon.
- stone, large rock: +0
- dart: +2
- javelin: +1
- spear: -1
- dagger: +1
- hand axes, clubs: -5
- throwing net: +1
If you can throw the large rock, you get +1 to accuracy.
Now for randomly extra accuracy, like for launched weapons:
You get 2 x throwing skill level, as you'd expect.
then for weapons: darts: + 2 x darts skill level + 1.5 x throwing skill level
- javelins: if throwing skill level is less than 3, it's + 2 x throwing skill level. If it's 3 or more, it's throwing skill level + 3. I believe this is to make the accuracy curve steep early on, and linear afterward to stop runaway success. There's also a random tweak for dexterity for both (more is better)
- throwing net: 3.5 x throwing skill level, and a random little tweak to this which takes into account dexterity.
If you weren't throwing a large rock or a throwing net, you get +dex/2, and also a slaying bonus, whatever that is.
Finally, +dex/4 just for throwing, and then a random amount of this extra accuracy is added to the base accuracy. Plus a little more if your ammo has some plusses.
That's it, I hope... now to answer the question...
I believe the accuracy of missiles is as follows, but this is just my summary, other people may disagree:
- a crossbow firing a bolt or a hand crossbow firing a dart (most accurate)
- a sling throwing a sling bullet
- a sling throwing a rock
- throwing a dart
- a blowgun firing a needle
- throwing a dagger
- throwing a javelin
- throwing a rock
- throwing a spear
- a bow firing an arrow
- a longbow firing an arrow
- throwing a large rock, if you are capable
- throwing a throwing net
- throwing a hand axe or club (least accurate)
Hawthorn 13:53, 3 November 2008 (MST)
(8) What if I threw a dagger, hand axe, or spear instead? Would these have the same accuracy, damage, and speed that they have when wielded?
The accuracy is given in the above answer; it's not the same as the wielded accuracy. The base damage they do, however, is the same as their wielded damage.
I can't find where the speed of a thrown missile is defined; possibly it simply takes up one turn.
(4) Does it matter whether my Str is higher than my Dex, or vice versa?
Depends on the weapon, as a lot of the above says. Bow-like weapons fire quicker with stronger wielders. Slings, blowguns prefer dex. For throwing, more strength will increase the damage done with a thrown missile. In all cases, more dex means better aim.
(6) If the missile is +1, does that effect accuracy, or damage, or both?
Both, whether launched or thrown.
(9) If my Throwing skill were 5 instead of 1... (9a) Same as (8)
Your bonus from throwing is increased by five times, and that applies to all thrown missiles. You also get another 5x bonus if it's darts, and javelins get a bonus plus an odd curve function to stop the accuracy running away.
(9b) Would this be more, less, or exactly as effective as a Dart skill of 5 and Throwing skill of 1 when throwing darts? In other words, do thrown darts use an average of Darts and Throwing skills, or do the two skills govern different aspects of dart throwing, or what?
To be precise, darts skill is about 1.33 times more important than throwing skill for throwing darts, so having the higher dart skill is better.
(10) Which is the best ranged weapon? ;D
I like the bow of frost. It makes my deep elf look awesome, especially when she's wearing leather and wielding a whip... sorry, what was the question again?
I haven't answered question 2 yet... that'll take going through the source again (it's even more fiddly than the accuracy). Hope this is enough to go by.
Hawthorn 18:20, 3 November 2008 (MST)
Good heavens! Thank you so much!
- This is a far more comprehensive and comprehensible answer than I had any right to expect. Thank you. I think I will be referring to this page with almost every character I play from now on.
Turnerjer 00:03, 5 November 2008 (MST)
- Thank you :) I'll probably compile this information into the wiki itself in a more readable form. Hawthorn 11:51, 5 November 2008 (MST)
BTW...
- Your Deep Elf is hot.
Turnerjer 00:15, 5 November 2008 (MST)
- And the devteam still won't give a bonus for hot elves wearing leather... Hawthorn 11:51, 5 November 2008 (MST)
A little more
The slaying bonus which I couldn't find above, I've now found.
Rings of slaying increase both accuracy and damage as you'd expect, with launchers and thrown weapons.
If you have an artifact which increases accuracy or damage, that happens here as well.
Finally, there is a temporary slaying status effect which increases both accuracy and damage, but I don't know what gives this effect (it may not even be used in game yet).
The above applies to all launched and thrown weapons except the large rock and the throwing net, possibly because they're supposed to be difficult to aim no matter how accurate you are.
I also can't find how the amulet of inaccuracy affects accuracy anywhere.
(2) Which will do the most damage if it hits?
Damage is a little different to accuracy (which is a number) - it's a virtual die or number of dice, which is rolled to decide damage like in Dungeons and Dragons. It's calculated in a similar way to accuracy, anyway: you have the base damage, then a random added amount of extra damage, and now you have a damage multiplier for the damage dice as well.
for launchers:
the base damage depends on the launcher, and is given in game. Like accuracy, this also reflects the 'tension' stored in the weapon.
- blowgun: 0 (no damage - needles are just for poisoning)
- sling: 0 (the damage from slings depends on dex, not str - again, see below, the 0 damage isn't true)
- hand crossbow: 3
- bow: 3
- crossbow: 5
- longbow: 6 (highest - real longbows really were this powerful, but also required more skill than the crossbow)
The missile being launched also adds some of its own damage, but it's a random amount - you may get none or all of the following amounts of damage...
- needle: 0
- stone: +4
- dart: +5
- sling bullet: +6
- arrow: +7
- bolt: +9 (highest)
If you're using a sling, there's been a little tweak in game which stops them being too weak: their base damage will be the same as that of the item they're launching, above. So forget the calculation above for them: base damage is 4 for stones, and 6 for sling bullets.
You get +1 to damage if your launcher and missile are from the same race.
That's it for the base damage. Here it can be seen that bolts do the most damage randomly, but with a longbow you'll always get that +6, compared to +5 for the crossbow.
And now there's the fun stuff. for the random extra damage, you get the amount of damage plusses on your launcher, and a random amount of your ammo's plusses. Of course, this could be negative (negative ammo, however, doesn't actually lower your damage here, it just doesn't has zero effect).
The extra damage gets re-randomised again, and has a chance of getting lower if you're in the positives, or higher if you're in the negatives - I guess to balance it out.
Then there's skills and stats. They influence the damage in the following way:
- slings skill: there's a 'well-made sling' bonus. You get a bonus to the extra damage from your strength, plus the quality of the ammo (sling bullets are better, plusses to ammo are better). The better your sling is (more plusses), the higher the cap on this; you can achieve a higher max damage with a better sling. Your slings skill level also randomly increases the damage multiplier here. Sorry I'm not giving exact numbers, but the calculations here are quite odd.
- darts skill(for blowgun): no damage bonus.
- bows skill: same for slings - you get a bonus to extra damage for a well-made bow, which lets you use your strength to increase that damage. Your bow skill level randomly increases the damage multiplier, but by a little less than with slings.
- crossbows skill: no strength bonus for a well-made crossbow (they're intended precisely so you don't use your strength when firing. Instead you just get the normal bonus for how many plusses it has). The crossbow skill level randomly increases the damage multiplier, by a little less than bows. If it's a hand crossbow, the multiplier is reduced a little (by about 80%).
That's it for skills - throwing skill does not increase damage for launchers.
After all this, you get a damage die on which the maximum number is base damage + random extra damage. Note that this is a die, and the final damage you do depends totally on your luck with it. You're probably already familiar with this in game if you've been killed at low level by a very lucky kobold.
The die's maximum is increased by the slaying bonus mentioned above.
now for thrown weapons...
base damage is the weapon's normal melee damage if it's not a missile. Here's the list:
- throwing net: 0
- stone: 4
- dagger: 4
- dart: 5
- club: 5
- spear: 6
- hand axe: 7
- javelin: 10
- large rock: 20 (highest)
If you're a dwarf with a dwarfish missile, or an orc with an orcish missile, you get a +1 bonus to base damage! This nicely balances the advantage elves get with accuracy.
If it was a stone or dart, and was hand thrown, base damage is halved. Sorry. :)
now extra damage: your throwing skill and strength both increase this for all missiles. The following get even more:
- for javelins: extra damage is increased by 0.6 x throwing skill level, plus a little tweak added by your str, and also a little tweak from dex (the more dex, the better you exploit weak spots)
- for darts: extra damage increases by darts skill level/3 + throwing skill level/5. Again, dart skill matters more, as you'd expect.
The base damage and random extra damage go into the damage die, add the slaying bonus if not a large rock or net, add the ammo plusses if it had any (melee weapon plusses don't count), and... that's it.
It looks like the large rock does most damage, but that's a specialist weapon. Longbow and crossbow are close to each other for high damage launchers. Javelins are the most highly damaging 'normal' thrown weapon.
That's more or less it, then. I'll probably try to make this into a readable page some time, unless someone gets to it first. :)
Hawthorn 11:51, 5 November 2008 (MST)
Thank you even more!
- I am even fonder of javelins now, and I was already pretty darned fond of them.
Turnerjer 17:27, 5 November 2008 (MST)
Observations about High Elf Hunters and the Bows skill...
- Here are my observations:
- (1) High Elf Hunters are awesome.
- (2) High Elf Hunters are superawesome.
Turnerjer 01:53, 6 November 2008 (MST)
