Difference between revisions of "User:Hordes"

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'''Specialization''' is a choice to invest XP in a few specific skills, rather than attempting to learn many skills at once. It is often essential, at least in one form or another.
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Relevant credentials: [http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/hordes.html Hordes (greaterplayer)] | [http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/moriya.html Moriya (greaterplayer #2)] | [http://crawl.akrasiac.org/scoring/players/horddes.html HorDDes (tournament)]
  
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== Useful Info ==
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More skill level means that skill is more powerful. Weapons will hit harder, attack faster, and are more accurate. Spells are stronger, less likely to fail, and higher level. Defensive skills will give more defense.
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Important links:
  
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== Strategy ==
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[[User:Hordes/Guide]]
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In ''Crawl'', the goal of the skill system is "to get the most out of your XP as possible". Sounds simple, and it really is. There is not a Pros and Cons with specialization, more so Pros and Caveats.
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*[[User:Hordes/Guide Appendix]]
  
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===Pros===
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[[User:Hordes/Basics Guide]]
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: '''1. Specializing in a skill often leads to less "wasted" XP.'''
 
  
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Usually, but not always, "wasting the least XP" is an efficient method of skill training.
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[[User:Hordes/Talisman]]
  
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Let's say you could either have {6 Polearms, 6 Conjurations, 6 Ranged Weapons} or {10 <one skill>}. The former may sound more appealing, as you can take advantage of 3 skills at once. However...
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(The rest of the page is just writing stuff that's WIP)
  
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* A. This can lead to skill waste. If you blast things with Conjurations before enemies get into melee range, then Polearms and Ranged Weapons skill aren't doing anything. If you are wearing heavy armour, to make your melee more effective, then Conjurations skill is wasted (it is very difficult to cast in plate armour!).
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'''List of gods, sorted by "when you get the first strong perk".''' (IMO)
  
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* B. There are more than just these three skills in Crawl. For example, a Polearms user could go {8 Polearms, 5 Armour, 5 Shields}, and a caster could go {8 Conjurations, 6 Dodging, 2 Spellcasting}. Both will be more effective than the original 6/6/6 distribution, which invests no XP into defenses.
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'''Gods that benefit you on first worship:'''
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*[[Ignis]] (Ignis)
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*[[Lugonu]] (Exit the Abyss)
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*[[Uskayaw]] (Uskayaw)
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*[[Yred]] (Reaping; resets on new floor)
  
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* C. Investing in a skill you're already good at gives a more ''immediate'' benefit. A Polearms-based [[Fighter]] may need 4 levels of Conjurations before they can cast their first spell. Before you reach 4 Conjurations, you aren't getting much from that skill. Meanwhile, having 4 more levels of Polearms would help for a longer period of time.
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Gozag has gold distraction (maybe worth listing here?), Fedhas pacifies sleepcaps
  
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: This is most important in the earlygame, and becomes less important as you progress. Judge whether a skill would help in the short- or medium- term.
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'''Gods that benefit you at 1*:'''
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*[[Ashenzari]] (ID items)
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*[[Gozag]] (Potion Pet)
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*[[Hep]] (Ancestor)
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*[[Nemelex]] (1st set of cards)
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*[[Okawaru]] (Heroism)
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*[[Trog]] (Berserk)
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*[[Sif Muna]] (MP recovery)
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*[[TSO]] (Halo, Divine Shield)
  
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This is not to dissuade "hybrid" builds entirely, but to put them into perspective. (See the next point for more details)
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IMO these gods don't provide good benefit at 1*, but provide ''some'' benefit: Ely Purification, Zin Recite, Makh heal on kill, WJC Lunge/Whirlwind, Dith stealth, Kiku Wretches (hard to use w/o good spell).
  
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:'''2. There exists skill thresholds, and specializing allows you to reach these thresholds faster.'''
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'''Gods that benefit you at 2*:'''
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*[[Beogh]] (Smite)
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*[[Elyvilon]] (Heal Other)
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*[[Fedhas]] (Briars)
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*[[Qazlal]] (Upheaval)
  
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In ''Crawl'', there exists quite a few skill thresholds.
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'''Gods that benefit you at 3* or more:'''
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* For weapons and destructive spells, this is when you can "comfortably kill things at <a certain level>".
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*[[Kiku]] (Variable; based on skill training)
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* For casting in general, this is when a spell goes from "unreliably castable" to "castable".
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*[[Vehumet]] (Variable; based on skill training)
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* For defensive skills, this is when you receive the next point of AC / EV / SH.
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*[[Makhleb]] (3*; Lesser Servant)
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Training skills too liberally will delay the threshold. E.g. going for {6 Polearms, 6 Conjurations, 6 Ranged Weapons} may prevent you from 'comfortably' killing things at all.
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*[[Ru]] (3*; Draw Out Power)
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*[[WJC]] (3*; Serpent's Lash)
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*[[Zin]] (3*; Imprison)
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*[[Dithmenos]] (4*; Shadow Mimic)
  
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In other words, having one reliable way of killing things is better than 3 unreliable ways of killing things. If you want to go for a "hybrid" build, it is best to train one skill to a competent level, and then the next.
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'''Gods that hurt you on first worship:'''
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*[[Chei]] (Slow)
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*[[Jiyva]] (Eats items, usually comes late)
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*[[Xom]] (Xom)
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*[[TSO]] (Halo messes with stealth)
  
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Of course, when things are 'competent' or 'comfortable' is very arbitrary - it depends on both the character and the player.
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===Caevats===
 
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:'''1. Higher levels of a skill are more expensive (the first few levels of a skill are cheap).'''
 
  
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For each level of a skill, the next level is more expensive. Is it really worth the XP to train from 25 Fighting -> 27 Fighting? Relative to the XP cost, the benefit of 2 Fighting is small. No matter how much you value extra HP, you may want to train a different skill.
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When you start with a melee-oriented [[background]], you'll get a '''starting weapon''' of choice.
  
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This is not exclusive to the late game. For instance, training 14 <weapon skill> in order to reach mindelay may not be the wisest choice. You could, as an example, get {10 Weapon, 8 Fighting, 8 Armour} instead, which is more effective.
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==Simple Starting Weapon==
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Used by most weapon-wielding backgrounds.
  
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Investing a few levels into Evocations or Throwing can also be effective. 3 levels of Evocations can be more effective than 1 level of weapon skill - (if you have a good wand to actually take advantage of Evocations).
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* [[File:Short sword1.png]] [[Short sword]] - [[Short Blades]] aren't great at regular combat, though they are good at [[stab]]bing. Uses [[dexterity]] instead of strength.
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* [[File:Mace1.png]] [[Mace]] - [[Maces & Flails]] are the strongest "[[strength]]" weapon, at least in terms of stats.
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* [[File:Hand axe1.png]] [[Hand axe]] - [[Axes]] have the ability to [[cleave]]. In addition to hitting a "main" target for 100% damage, they'll hit every monster adjacent to you for 70% damage. However, axes deal less damage than other weapons.
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* [[File:Spear1.png]] [[Spear]] - [[Polearms]] have [[reaching]] - they can attack from an extra tile away. Despite their worse stats, spears are the best option to fight single targets, due to their extra range.
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* [[File:Falchion1.png]] [[Falchion]] - [[Long Blades]] are similar to Maces; higher base damage, but no gimmick. They use [[dexterity]] instead of strength.
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* [[File:Glove1.png]] [[Unarmed Combat]] - Unarmed Combat is usually the weakest of the available "weapons". Certain species, like [[Troll]]s and [[Ghouls]], receive special bonuses to Unarmed attacks. Unarmed can become strong at high skill, but that's a long while away.
  
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:'''2. "Avoiding wasted experience" is not always the most beneficial method of skill training.'''
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==Good Starting Weapon==
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[[Fighter]]s and [[Gladiator]]s start with a better ("good") starting weapon than other backgrounds.
  
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[[Poison Magic]] is perhaps the best example of this. Spells like [[Olgreb's Toxic Radiance]] are great in the early game. But as enemy HP increases, and as more enemies have rPois, poison starts to wane. If you then find a great weapon and wear heavy armour, then all that Poison Magic training would be wasted. Yet, this doesn't change that melee is (could be) the most ''beneficial'' thing you could train right now.
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* [[File:Rapier1.png]] [[Rapier]] - Short Blades are good at [[stab]]bing, but weaker at plain combat. Rapiers are the only "good" weapon that stats below 1.0 [[attack delay]], meaning monsters won't get a chance to hit you twice.
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* [[File:Flail1.png]] [[Flail]] - Maces & Flails have higher base damage, but no special gimmicks.
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* [[File:War axe1.png]] [[War axe]] - Axes can cleave, but deal less single-target damage. Great option for strong species, like [[Hill Orc]]s and [[Minotaur]]s.
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* [[File:Trident1.png]] [[Trident]] - Polearms can attack from a tile away. Like the spear before it, tridents are usually the best option against single targets.
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* [[File:Long sword1.png]] [[Long sword]] - Long swords are slightly more powerful than flails, though long swords use dexterity instead of strength.
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* [[File:Quarterstaff.png]] [[Quarterstaff]] - Quarterstaves deal more damage/turn than any other option, but they are [[handedness|two-handed]], meaning you can't wear a [[shield]] with one. Because of this restriction, only [[Gladiator]]s and [[Formicid]] [[Fighter]]s can start with one. In addition, [[Staves]] are rarer than other weapon types.
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* [[File:Glove1.png]] [[Unarmed Combat]] - Unarmed Combat is usually the weakest of the available "weapons". Certain species, like [[Troll]]s and [[Ghouls]], receive special bonuses to Unarmed attacks. Unarmed can become strong at high skill, but that's a long while away.
  
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Plus, all that Poison Magic wasn't useless - it got you past a good chunk of the game. And if you decide to stay in light armour, then you could still benefit from OTR and other poison spells, even into [[Zot]].
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==Strategy==
  
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Even in this example, you'd be following the guideline of "train a killing skill until you can comfortably kill things, then train other things". At a certain point, you don't need to invest any more XP into Poison, and can afford to train defenses and/or another way of killing.
 
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[[User:Hordes/Guide]]
 
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*[[User:Hordes/Guide Appendix]]
 
  
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[[User:Hordes/Basics Guide]]
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Latest revision as of 09:13, 16 January 2024

Relevant credentials: Hordes (greaterplayer) | Moriya (greaterplayer #2) | HorDDes (tournament)

Important links:

User:Hordes/Guide

User:Hordes/Basics Guide

User:Hordes/Talisman

(The rest of the page is just writing stuff that's WIP)

List of gods, sorted by "when you get the first strong perk". (IMO)

Gods that benefit you on first worship:

Gozag has gold distraction (maybe worth listing here?), Fedhas pacifies sleepcaps

Gods that benefit you at 1*:

IMO these gods don't provide good benefit at 1*, but provide some benefit: Ely Purification, Zin Recite, Makh heal on kill, WJC Lunge/Whirlwind, Dith stealth, Kiku Wretches (hard to use w/o good spell).

Gods that benefit you at 2*:

Gods that benefit you at 3* or more:

  • Kiku (Variable; based on skill training)
  • Vehumet (Variable; based on skill training)
  • Makhleb (3*; Lesser Servant)
  • Ru (3*; Draw Out Power)
  • WJC (3*; Serpent's Lash)
  • Zin (3*; Imprison)
  • Dithmenos (4*; Shadow Mimic)

Gods that hurt you on first worship:

  • Chei (Slow)
  • Jiyva (Eats items, usually comes late)
  • Xom (Xom)
  • TSO (Halo messes with stealth)

When you start with a melee-oriented background, you'll get a starting weapon of choice.

Simple Starting Weapon

Used by most weapon-wielding backgrounds.

  • Short sword1.png Short sword - Short Blades aren't great at regular combat, though they are good at stabbing. Uses dexterity instead of strength.
  • Mace1.png Mace - Maces & Flails are the strongest "strength" weapon, at least in terms of stats.
  • Hand axe1.png Hand axe - Axes have the ability to cleave. In addition to hitting a "main" target for 100% damage, they'll hit every monster adjacent to you for 70% damage. However, axes deal less damage than other weapons.
  • Spear1.png Spear - Polearms have reaching - they can attack from an extra tile away. Despite their worse stats, spears are the best option to fight single targets, due to their extra range.
  • Falchion1.png Falchion - Long Blades are similar to Maces; higher base damage, but no gimmick. They use dexterity instead of strength.
  • Glove1.png Unarmed Combat - Unarmed Combat is usually the weakest of the available "weapons". Certain species, like Trolls and Ghouls, receive special bonuses to Unarmed attacks. Unarmed can become strong at high skill, but that's a long while away.

Good Starting Weapon

Fighters and Gladiators start with a better ("good") starting weapon than other backgrounds.

  • Rapier1.png Rapier - Short Blades are good at stabbing, but weaker at plain combat. Rapiers are the only "good" weapon that stats below 1.0 attack delay, meaning monsters won't get a chance to hit you twice.
  • Flail1.png Flail - Maces & Flails have higher base damage, but no special gimmicks.
  • War axe1.png War axe - Axes can cleave, but deal less single-target damage. Great option for strong species, like Hill Orcs and Minotaurs.
  • Trident1.png Trident - Polearms can attack from a tile away. Like the spear before it, tridents are usually the best option against single targets.
  • Long sword1.png Long sword - Long swords are slightly more powerful than flails, though long swords use dexterity instead of strength.
  • Quarterstaff.png Quarterstaff - Quarterstaves deal more damage/turn than any other option, but they are two-handed, meaning you can't wear a shield with one. Because of this restriction, only Gladiators and Formicid Fighters can start with one. In addition, Staves are rarer than other weapon types.
  • Glove1.png Unarmed Combat - Unarmed Combat is usually the weakest of the available "weapons". Certain species, like Trolls and Ghouls, receive special bonuses to Unarmed attacks. Unarmed can become strong at high skill, but that's a long while away.

Strategy

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