Difference between revisions of "User:Hordes"

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Djinn have +11 aptitudes in magic, but are forced to train all skills equally. This equates to training a single school at a -3.3 aptitude - with a caveat. By the mid-game, their aptitudes are often ''much'' higher than -3 in practice.<ref>Djinn split XP between 12 skills at a +11 aptitude. As XP cost = <code>2^(-apt/4)</code>, each skill costs <code>2^(-11/4) * 12</code> = 1.78x the XP of a single skill. This equates to a <code>-4 * log2(1.78)</code> = -3.32 aptitude.  
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Djinn have +11 aptitudes in magic, but are forced to train all skills equally. This equates to training a single school at a -3.3 aptitude - with a caveat. By the mid-game, their aptitudes are often ''much'' higher than -3 in practice.<ref>Djinn split XP between 12 skills at a +11 aptitude. As XP cost = <code>2^(-apt/4)</code>, each skill costs <code>2^(-11/4) * 12</code> = 1.78x the XP of a single skill. This equates to a <code>-4 * log2(1.78)</code> = -3.32 aptitude. However, there are odd quirks with Djinni spellcasting.  
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However, there is an odd quirk with Djinn casting aptitude. Djinn train Spellcasting and <Spell Schools> at the same time. Other species only train either Spellcasting or <Spell Schools>. Therefore, 1 level of Djinni <All Magic Schools> is equal to 1.25 levels of another species' <Conjurations> only. Since XP cost rises as level rises, and Djinn get more out of each level, the regular species has a relatively higher XP cost.  
 
 
*Say you wanted to cast a single-school Conjurations spell. If you only cared about spell power/failure, a [[Kobold]] would be most efficient a point like {5 Spellcasting, 15 Conjurations}. This would cost 72.75 skill points.
 
*Say you wanted to cast a single-school Conjurations spell. If you only cared about spell power/failure, a [[Kobold]] would be most efficient a point like {5 Spellcasting, 15 Conjurations}. This would cost 72.75 skill points.
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*A Djinni would reach the same power as the Kobold at {13 Spellcasting, 13 Conjurations}. Each skill has 7.13 skill points, or 85.56 skill points in total. This is only +17.6% more XP than the Kobold, or a '''-0.9''' aptitude.
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*A Djinni would reach the same power as the Kobold at {13 Spellcasting, 13 Conjurations}. Each skill has 7.13 skill points, or 85.56 skill points in total. This is only +17.6% more XP than the Kobold, or a '''-0.9''' aptitude.  
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*Note that if the Kobold were to train more Spellcasting, for either MP or spell level purposes, they'd become less efficient. A Kobold at {10 Spellcasting, 13.5 Conjurations} would reach the same power, but at a cost of 79.13 skill points. This makes Djinn even better by comparison.
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*Note that if the Kobold were to train more Spellcasting, for either MP or spell level purposes, they'd become less efficient. A Kobold at {10 Spellcasting, 13.5 Conjurations} would reach the same power, but at a cost of 79.13 skill points.
 
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For dual-school spells, Djinn only become better. A Kobold would be efficient at {8 Spellcasting, 15 Fire, 15 Conj}, costing 153 skill points. A Djinni equals that at {13.6 Spellcasting, 13.6 Fire, 13.6 Conj}, or 94.44 skill points, which is 61.7% the XP. That's an effective aptitude of '''+2.7''' - even better than [[Deep Elves]]!
 
For dual-school spells, Djinn only become better. A Kobold would be efficient at {8 Spellcasting, 15 Fire, 15 Conj}, costing 153 skill points. A Djinni equals that at {13.6 Spellcasting, 13.6 Fire, 13.6 Conj}, or 94.44 skill points, which is 61.7% the XP. That's an effective aptitude of '''+2.7''' - even better than [[Deep Elves]]!
 
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The exact efficiency depends on the level of skill. At low skill levels, Djinn are truly around a -3 aptitude for single-school spells. At XL 27, Djinn can be cheaper than Kobolds, even for single-school spells.
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The exact efficiency depends on the level of skill. At low skill levels, Djinn are truly around a -3 aptitude for single-school spells. At XL 27, Djinn can be cheaper than Kobolds, even for single-school spells. For a rationale as to why this happens, you can think about it in two ways:
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#If you wanted to maximize power on a regular species, you would train low Spellcasting, high <Spell Schools>. XP costs rise as skill levels rise. So a regular species, wanting to train to a higher skill level, would face relatively higher XP cost. This matters less in the early game as the XP penalties aren't as big.
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#In practice, regular species will want to train Spellcasting for spell levels and MP. Djinn have infinite spell levels and high max MP, so they can dedicate more XP into increasing power.
 
</ref> And, since every school is trained at once, dual-school spells are very easy to train. Overall, a dedicated mage will not have trouble casting spells.
 
</ref> And, since every school is trained at once, dual-school spells are very easy to train. Overall, a dedicated mage will not have trouble casting spells.
  

Revision as of 20:07, 11 November 2023

Relevant credentials: Hordes (greaterplayer) | Moriya (greaterplayer #2) | HorDDes (tournament)

User:Hordes/Guide

User:Hordes/Basics Guide

User:Hordes/Talisman

(The rest of the page is just writing stuff that's WIP)

Djinn have +11 aptitudes in magic, but are forced to train all skills equally. This equates to training a single school at a -3.3 aptitude - with a caveat. By the mid-game, their aptitudes are often much higher than -3 in practice.[1] And, since every school is trained at once, dual-school spells are very easy to train. Overall, a dedicated mage will not have trouble casting spells.

Tengu are a versatile, but frail species. Their aptitudes are good across the board, with impeccably good skill in Conjurations and Air Magic. With 2 auxiliary attacks, melee is also viable. However, Tengu are among the most fragile species in the game (-20% HP; unable to wear helmets/boots). Unlike Spriggans and Felids, Tengu do not get increased movement speed to compensate.

Note that Tengu are not small, so they don't get a bonus to the Dodging skill. It is true that Acrobatic and Evasive Flight grant EV, however, these bonuses are unaffected by armour encumbrance. Therefore, Tengu can wear heavy armour like any regular species.

List of gods, sorted by "when you get the first strong perk". (IMO)

Gods that benefit you on first worship:

Gozag has gold distraction (maybe worth listing here?), Fedhas pacifies sleepcaps

Gods that benefit you at 1*:

IMO these gods don't provide good benefit at 1*, but provide some benefit: Ely Purification, Zin Recite, Makh heal on kill, WJC Lunge/Whirlwind, Dith stealth, Kiku Wretches (hard to use w/o good spell).

Gods that benefit you at 2*:

Gods that benefit you at 3* or more:

  • Kiku (Variable; based on skill training)
  • Vehumet (Variable; based on skill training)
  • Makhleb (3*; Lesser Servant)
  • Ru (3*; Draw Out Power)
  • WJC (3*; Serpent's Lash)
  • Zin (3*; Imprison)
  • Dithmenos (4*; Shadow Mimic)

Gods that hurt you on first worship:

  • Chei (Slow)
  • Jiyva (Eats items, usually comes late)
  • Xom (Xom)
  • TSO (Halo messes with stealth)

When you start with a melee-oriented background, you'll get a starting weapon of choice.

Simple Starting Weapon

Used by most weapon-wielding backgrounds.

  • Short sword1.png Short sword - Short Blades aren't great at regular combat, though they are good at stabbing. Uses dexterity instead of strength.
  • Mace1.png Mace - Maces & Flails are the strongest "strength" weapon, at least in terms of stats.
  • Hand axe1.png Hand axe - Axes have the ability to cleave. In addition to hitting a "main" target for 100% damage, they'll hit every monster adjacent to you for 70% damage. However, axes deal less damage than other weapons.
  • Spear1.png Spear - Polearms have reaching - they can attack from an extra tile away. Despite their worse stats, spears are the best option to fight single targets, due to their extra range.
  • Falchion1.png Falchion - Long Blades are similar to Maces; higher base damage, but no gimmick. They use dexterity instead of strength.
  • Glove1.png Unarmed Combat - Unarmed Combat is usually the weakest of the available "weapons". Certain species, like Trolls and Ghouls, receive special bonuses to Unarmed attacks. Unarmed can become strong at high skill, but that's a long while away.

Good Starting Weapon

Fighters and Gladiators start with a better ("good") starting weapon than other backgrounds.

  • Rapier1.png Rapier - Short Blades are good at stabbing, but weaker at plain combat. Rapiers are the only "good" weapon that stats below 1.0 attack delay, meaning monsters won't get a chance to hit you twice.
  • Flail1.png Flail - Maces & Flails have higher base damage, but no special gimmicks.
  • War axe1.png War axe - Axes can cleave, but deal less single-target damage. Great option for strong species, like Hill Orcs and Minotaurs.
  • Trident1.png Trident - Polearms can attack from a tile away. Like the spear before it, tridents are usually the best option against single targets.
  • Long sword1.png Long sword - Long swords are slightly more powerful than flails, though long swords use dexterity instead of strength.
  • Quarterstaff.png Quarterstaff - Quarterstaves deal more damage/turn than any other option, but they are two-handed, meaning you can't wear a shield with one. Because of this restriction, only Gladiators and Formicid Fighters can start with one. In addition, Staves are rarer than other weapon types.
  • Glove1.png Unarmed Combat - Unarmed Combat is usually the weakest of the available "weapons". Certain species, like Trolls and Ghouls, receive special bonuses to Unarmed attacks. Unarmed can become strong at high skill, but that's a long while away.

Strategy

  1. ↑ Djinn split XP between 12 skills at a +11 aptitude. As XP cost = 2^(-apt/4), each skill costs 2^(-11/4) * 12 = 1.78x the XP of a single skill. This equates to a -4 * log2(1.78) = -3.32 aptitude. However, there are odd quirks with Djinni spellcasting.
    • Say you wanted to cast a single-school Conjurations spell. If you only cared about spell power/failure, a Kobold would be most efficient a point like {5 Spellcasting, 15 Conjurations}. This would cost 72.75 skill points.
    • A Djinni would reach the same power as the Kobold at {13 Spellcasting, 13 Conjurations}. Each skill has 7.13 skill points, or 85.56 skill points in total. This is only +17.6% more XP than the Kobold, or a -0.9 aptitude.
    • Note that if the Kobold were to train more Spellcasting, for either MP or spell level purposes, they'd become less efficient. A Kobold at {10 Spellcasting, 13.5 Conjurations} would reach the same power, but at a cost of 79.13 skill points.
    For dual-school spells, Djinn only become better. A Kobold would be efficient at {8 Spellcasting, 15 Fire, 15 Conj}, costing 153 skill points. A Djinni equals that at {13.6 Spellcasting, 13.6 Fire, 13.6 Conj}, or 94.44 skill points, which is 61.7% the XP. That's an effective aptitude of +2.7 - even better than Deep Elves!
    The exact efficiency depends on the level of skill. At low skill levels, Djinn are truly around a -3 aptitude for single-school spells. At XL 27, Djinn can be cheaper than Kobolds, even for single-school spells. For a rationale as to why this happens, you can think about it in two ways:
    1. If you wanted to maximize power on a regular species, you would train low Spellcasting, high <Spell Schools>. XP costs rise as skill levels rise. So a regular species, wanting to train to a higher skill level, would face relatively higher XP cost. This matters less in the early game as the XP penalties aren't as big.
    2. In practice, regular species will want to train Spellcasting for spell levels and MP. Djinn have infinite spell levels and high max MP, so they can dedicate more XP into increasing power.
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