Difference between revisions of "User:Hordes"

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*In practice, spell power isn't everything. The Kobold may want to train more Spellcasting, for either MP or spell level purposes. Said Kobold at {10 Spellcasting, 13.5 Conjurations} would reach the same power, but at a cost of 7913 skill points. Because Djinn don't need to spend XP for MP or spell levels, they can invest more into spell power.
 
*In practice, spell power isn't everything. The Kobold may want to train more Spellcasting, for either MP or spell level purposes. Said Kobold at {10 Spellcasting, 13.5 Conjurations} would reach the same power, but at a cost of 7913 skill points. Because Djinn don't need to spend XP for MP or spell levels, they can invest more into spell power.
 
:
 
:
−
For dual-school spells, Djinn only become better. Using the same analysis for [[Firebal]], a Kobold would be efficient at {8 Spellcasting, 15 Fire, 15 Conj}, costing 153 skill points. A Djinni equals that at {13.6 Spellcasting, 13.6 Fire, 13.6 Conj}, or 94.44 skill points, which is 61.7% the XP. That's an effective aptitude of '''+2.7''' - even better than [[Deep Elves]]!
+
For dual-school spells, Djinn only become better. Using the same analysis for [[Fireball]], a Kobold would be efficient at {8 Spellcasting, 15 Fire, 15 Conj}, costing 153 skill points. A Djinni equals that at {13.6 Spellcasting, 13.6 Fire, 13.6 Conj}, or 94.44 skill points, which is 61.7% the XP. That's an effective aptitude of '''+2.7''' - even better than [[Deep Elves]]!
 
:
 
:
 
The exact efficiency depends on the level of skill. At low skill levels, Djinn are truly around a -3 aptitude for single-school spells. At XL 27, Djinn can be cheaper than Kobolds, even for single-school spells.
 
The exact efficiency depends on the level of skill. At low skill levels, Djinn are truly around a -3 aptitude for single-school spells. At XL 27, Djinn can be cheaper than Kobolds, even for single-school spells.
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|N/A
 
|N/A
 
|Melee inflicts [[drain]], [[slow]], [[weak]]
 
|Melee inflicts [[drain]], [[slow]], [[weak]]
 +
|}
 +
 +
{| class="prettytable"
 +
|-
 +
! Form || Skill || Melded Gear || Offense || Defense || Resist || Other
 +
|-
 +
|[[Beast Form]]|| 0-7 || Helmet Cloak<br> Gloves Boots || +0-4 [[slay]]ing in melee || 100% HP || - || -
 +
|-
 +
|[[Wisp Form]] || 6-14 || Weapon & Shield<br>Body armour ||×66% melee dmg<br> First hit on foe: [[Corona]]<br> Third hit on foe: [[malmutate]], extra damage|| 100% HP<br>+4 [[EV]] || - || -
 +
|-
 +
|[[Blade Form]] || 10-19 || Weapon & Shield<br>Gloves || 15-19 UC base damage<br>+Offhand punch damage || 100% HP<br>Lose 0-100% AC from body armour || - || -
 +
|-
 +
|[[Maw Form]] || 10-19 || Body armour || 5 UC base damage<br>Maw [[auxiliary attack]] || 100% HP || - || Heal on kill
 +
|-
 +
|[[Serpent Form]] || 10-19 || Weapon & Shield<br>All armour || 10 UC base damage<br>[[Constrict]]<br>+5 [[strength]] || 120% HP<br>9-15 AC || rPois<br>[[Cold blooded]]||Sets move delay to 1.0<br>[[Large]]<br>[[Amphibious]]
 +
|-
 +
|[[Dragon Form]] || 16-23 || Weapon & Shield<br>All armour || 24-33 UC base damage<br>2 [[auxiliary attack]]s<br>+10 [[strength]] || 150% HP<br>12-18 AC || rF++<br>rC-<br>rPois || Breathe Fire ability<br>Sets move delay to 1.0<br>[[Size#Giant|Giant]]<br>[[Flying]]
 +
|-
 +
|[[Statue Form]] || 16-23 || Body armour<br>Gloves Boots || 12 UC base damage<br>×150% melee dmg || 130% HP<br>27-38 AC || rPois∞<br>rElec<br>rTorm<br>rPetrify<br>[[Nonliving]] || All actions ×150% slower<br>Sets move delay to 1.0 (slowed to 1.5)<br>Vuln. to [[LRD]]/[[Shatter]]
 +
|-
 +
|[[Death Form]] || 23-27 || None || 9 UC base damage<br>Melee inflicts [[slow]], [[drain]]ed, [[weak]] || 100% HP || rPois∞<br>rC+<br>rN+++<br>rTorm∞<br>Will+<br>[[Undead]] || Siphon Essense ability<br>
 +
|-
 +
|[[Storm Form]] || 10-19 || Weapon & Shield<br>All armour || 24-30 UC base damage<br>[[Electrocution]], [[cleaving]] || 100% HP<br>12-15 [[AC]]<br>+20-27[[EV]]<br>|| rPois∞<br>rElec<br>[[Insubstantial]] || Blinkbolt ability<br>Sets move delay to 1.0<br>[[Flying]]
 
|}
 
|}
  

Revision as of 07:17, 9 January 2024

Relevant credentials: Hordes (greaterplayer) | Moriya (greaterplayer #2) | HorDDes (tournament)

Important links:

User:Hordes/Guide

User:Hordes/Basics Guide

User:Hordes/Talisman

(The rest of the page is just writing stuff that's WIP)

Djinn have +11 aptitudes in magic, but are forced to train all skills equally. At the start of the game, this equates to training a single school at a -3.3 aptitude. But by the time a caster reaches mid-game, their effective aptitude is higher than -3 in practice.[1] And, since every school is trained at once, dual- and triple-school spells are very easy to train. Overall, a dedicated mage will not have trouble casting spells.

Tengu are a versatile, but frail species. Their aptitudes are good across the board, with impeccably good skill in Conjurations and Air Magic. And with 2 auxiliary attacks, melee is not out of the question. However, Tengu are among the most fragile species in the game: they have -20% HP and can't wear helmets/boots.

Note that, despite being described as "agile" and "light", Tengu do not get any special bonus from the Dodging skill. It is true that Acrobatic and Evasive Flight grant EV, however, these bonuses are unaffected by skill or armour encumbrance. Therefore, wearing heavy armour is not out of the question.

Form Min Dmg Max Dmg Min Skill Max Skill Dmg/level Special
Normal 3 N/A N/A N/A
Beast 3 0 7 N/A Extra slaying to all melee combat
Flux 3 6 13 N/A x66% melee damage; contaminating melee
Blade 14 18 10 19 0.88 Extra offhand punch damage
Maw 5 10 19 N/A Maw auxiliary attack
Serpent 10 10 19 N/A Constriction
Dragon 24 33 16 25 1 +10 strength; 2 auxiliary attacks
Statue 12 10 19 N/A x150% melee damage; all actions x150% slower
Storm 24 30 23 27 1.5 Electrocution brand; cleaving
Death 9 23 27 N/A Melee inflicts drain, slow, weak
Form Skill Melded Gear Offense Defense Resist Other
Beast Form 0-7 Helmet Cloak
Gloves Boots 		+0-4 slaying in melee 100% HP - -
Wisp Form 6-14 Weapon & Shield
Body armour 		×66% melee dmg
First hit on foe: Corona
Third hit on foe: malmutate, extra damage		 100% HP
+4 EV 		- -
Blade Form 10-19 Weapon & Shield
Gloves 		15-19 UC base damage
+Offhand punch damage 		100% HP
Lose 0-100% AC from body armour 		- -
Maw Form 10-19 Body armour 5 UC base damage
Maw auxiliary attack 		100% HP - Heal on kill
Serpent Form 10-19 Weapon & Shield
All armour 		10 UC base damage
Constrict
+5 strength 		120% HP
9-15 AC 		rPois
Cold blooded		 Sets move delay to 1.0
Large
Amphibious
Dragon Form 16-23 Weapon & Shield
All armour 		24-33 UC base damage
2 auxiliary attacks
+10 strength 		150% HP
12-18 AC 		rF++
rC-
rPois 		Breathe Fire ability
Sets move delay to 1.0
Giant
Flying
Statue Form 16-23 Body armour
Gloves Boots 		12 UC base damage
×150% melee dmg 		130% HP
27-38 AC 		rPois∞
rElec
rTorm
rPetrify
Nonliving 		All actions ×150% slower
Sets move delay to 1.0 (slowed to 1.5)
Vuln. to LRD/Shatter
Death Form 23-27 None 9 UC base damage
Melee inflicts slow, drained, weak 		100% HP rPois∞
rC+
rN+++
rTorm∞
Will+
Undead 		Siphon Essense ability
Storm Form 10-19 Weapon & Shield
All armour 		24-30 UC base damage
Electrocution, cleaving 		100% HP
12-15 AC
+20-27EV
 rPois∞
rElec
Insubstantial 		Blinkbolt ability
Sets move delay to 1.0
Flying

List of gods, sorted by "when you get the first strong perk". (IMO)

Gods that benefit you on first worship:

Gozag has gold distraction (maybe worth listing here?), Fedhas pacifies sleepcaps

Gods that benefit you at 1*:

IMO these gods don't provide good benefit at 1*, but provide some benefit: Ely Purification, Zin Recite, Makh heal on kill, WJC Lunge/Whirlwind, Dith stealth, Kiku Wretches (hard to use w/o good spell).

Gods that benefit you at 2*:

Gods that benefit you at 3* or more:

  • Kiku (Variable; based on skill training)
  • Vehumet (Variable; based on skill training)
  • Makhleb (3*; Lesser Servant)
  • Ru (3*; Draw Out Power)
  • WJC (3*; Serpent's Lash)
  • Zin (3*; Imprison)
  • Dithmenos (4*; Shadow Mimic)

Gods that hurt you on first worship:

  • Chei (Slow)
  • Jiyva (Eats items, usually comes late)
  • Xom (Xom)
  • TSO (Halo messes with stealth)

When you start with a melee-oriented background, you'll get a starting weapon of choice.

Simple Starting Weapon

Used by most weapon-wielding backgrounds.

  • Short sword1.png Short sword - Short Blades aren't great at regular combat, though they are good at stabbing. Uses dexterity instead of strength.
  • Mace1.png Mace - Maces & Flails are the strongest "strength" weapon, at least in terms of stats.
  • Hand axe1.png Hand axe - Axes have the ability to cleave. In addition to hitting a "main" target for 100% damage, they'll hit every monster adjacent to you for 70% damage. However, axes deal less damage than other weapons.
  • Spear1.png Spear - Polearms have reaching - they can attack from an extra tile away. Despite their worse stats, spears are the best option to fight single targets, due to their extra range.
  • Falchion1.png Falchion - Long Blades are similar to Maces; higher base damage, but no gimmick. They use dexterity instead of strength.
  • Glove1.png Unarmed Combat - Unarmed Combat is usually the weakest of the available "weapons". Certain species, like Trolls and Ghouls, receive special bonuses to Unarmed attacks. Unarmed can become strong at high skill, but that's a long while away.

Good Starting Weapon

Fighters and Gladiators start with a better ("good") starting weapon than other backgrounds.

  • Rapier1.png Rapier - Short Blades are good at stabbing, but weaker at plain combat. Rapiers are the only "good" weapon that stats below 1.0 attack delay, meaning monsters won't get a chance to hit you twice.
  • Flail1.png Flail - Maces & Flails have higher base damage, but no special gimmicks.
  • War axe1.png War axe - Axes can cleave, but deal less single-target damage. Great option for strong species, like Hill Orcs and Minotaurs.
  • Trident1.png Trident - Polearms can attack from a tile away. Like the spear before it, tridents are usually the best option against single targets.
  • Long sword1.png Long sword - Long swords are slightly more powerful than flails, though long swords use dexterity instead of strength.
  • Quarterstaff.png Quarterstaff - Quarterstaves deal more damage/turn than any other option, but they are two-handed, meaning you can't wear a shield with one. Because of this restriction, only Gladiators and Formicid Fighters can start with one. In addition, Staves are rarer than other weapon types.
  • Glove1.png Unarmed Combat - Unarmed Combat is usually the weakest of the available "weapons". Certain species, like Trolls and Ghouls, receive special bonuses to Unarmed attacks. Unarmed can become strong at high skill, but that's a long while away.

Strategy

  1. ↑ Djinn split XP between 12 skills at a +11 aptitude. As XP cost = 2^(-apt/4), each skill costs 2^(-11/4) * 12 = 1.78x the XP of a single skill. This equates to training a single "skill" at -4 * log2(1.78) = -3.32 aptitude. However, this "skill" includes both [every Spell School] and Spellcasting. Once you that into account, Djinn are better than a -3.32 aptitude suggests. Say you want to cast a Conjurations spell:
    • If you were playing a Kobold and only cared about spell power, you would train to {5 Spellcasting, 15 Conjurations}. This would cost 7275 skill points.
    • A Djinn would reach the same amount of power at {13 Spellcasting, 13 Conjurations}. Each of the 12 skills costs 713 skill points, or 8556 skill points in total. This is only +17.6% more XP than the Kobold, or a -0.9 aptitude. This happens because going from 12 -> 13 in a skill is cheaper than going from 14 -> 15 in a skill.
    • In practice, spell power isn't everything. The Kobold may want to train more Spellcasting, for either MP or spell level purposes. Said Kobold at {10 Spellcasting, 13.5 Conjurations} would reach the same power, but at a cost of 7913 skill points. Because Djinn don't need to spend XP for MP or spell levels, they can invest more into spell power.
    For dual-school spells, Djinn only become better. Using the same analysis for Fireball, a Kobold would be efficient at {8 Spellcasting, 15 Fire, 15 Conj}, costing 153 skill points. A Djinni equals that at {13.6 Spellcasting, 13.6 Fire, 13.6 Conj}, or 94.44 skill points, which is 61.7% the XP. That's an effective aptitude of +2.7 - even better than Deep Elves!
    The exact efficiency depends on the level of skill. At low skill levels, Djinn are truly around a -3 aptitude for single-school spells. At XL 27, Djinn can be cheaper than Kobolds, even for single-school spells.
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